[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

According to the police:

$1:

The two men became involved in a physical confrontation with an armed uniformed private security officer who was working at a nearby location. During the altercation, the private security officer discharged his firearm, fatally wounding both men. The private security officer was subsequently taken to hospital where he was treated for a firearm-related injury.

Where are you guys getting that somebody tried to get his gun?

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

The scenario has been laid out multiple times in the media. Two guys, intoxicated, start an argument with the armed guard. One of the men reaches for his gun, there's a struggle, the guard is shot in the hand and then he shoots the two guys.

McDonalds has state of the art surveillance system, and there were 8-10 people in the McDonalds at the time. Tons of evidence, lots of eye witnesses. This isn't a case of he-said-she-said.

The police don't have to lay out all of the evidence in a case when someone isn't going to be charged.

It was also laid out clearly in the article that's still on the front page.

$1:

On Wednesday, police said crown attorneys decided there was “no reasonable prospect of conviction.” Before announcing the decision, police met with the families of both victims to tell them the shooter wouldn’t face criminal charges. Investigators also showed the families security camera footage of the incident, police spokesman Mark Pugash said.

GardaWorld, the security guard’s employer, said he has “fully recovered from his injuries and he is back at work at the company.” Spokesman Joe Gavaghan could not confirm if the guard was still carrying a gun.

“Certain assignments that we have require that our personnel be armed,” he said. “Those individuals, of course, are fully licensed and they received extensive weapons training.”

The guard has not been named publicly.

“People are asking, ‘How does he get to bring a gun, kill two people and walk away with no charges?’” said Ari Goldkind, a criminal defence attorney and former Toronto mayoral candidate. “Not everybody should be charged, even if the optics of it make us — me included — raise an eyebrow.”

Goldkind noted that extensive video footage from the McDonald’s would have been a key factor in the Crown’s decision, because it’s objective evidence.

“If a person feels that there’s an imminent threat of injury or death, they are allowed to defend themselves with as much force as is reasonable,” he said. “The video probably made it clear that at no point did this security guard do anything other than defend himself.”

“People think, ‘Oh will this set a precedent?’ … I don’t think this will lead to a scourge of security guard-related killings.”

http://www.canadaka.net/link.php?id=91703

[Zipperfish]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

It was reported in the early reports on the incident which is how he sustained the gunshot wound to his hand.

Oh. That's not what this article says.

[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Where are you guys getting that somebody tried to get his gun?

It was reported in the early reports on the incident which is how he sustained the gunshot wound to his hand.

Oh. That's not what this article says.

We are recalling it from the original articles when it happened.

[OnTheIce]

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

As I stated, there is a reason the TPS and it's leadership is not trusted.

Speak for yourself.

[shockedcanadian]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

As I stated, there is a reason the TPS and it's leadership is not trusted.

Speak for yourself.

Based on the recent Toronto council vote on carding (all but Rob Ford voted against carding), it appears Mark Saunders is experiencing a healthy dose of early disagreement. A recent poll shows more than 50% of citizens against carding.

I would be the first to come to the aid of an officer if I saw them in harms way so my conscience is clear. Without accountability, transparency and consequences for bad apples however the distrust will continue. Google the polls over the last few years, this is becoming far too common a concern.

[OnTheIce]

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

Based on the recent Toronto council vote on carding (all but Rob Ford voted against carding), it appears Mark Saunders is experiencing a healthy dose of early disagreement. A recent poll shows more than 50% of citizens against carding.

I would be the first to come to the aid of an officer if I saw them in harms way so my conscience is clear. Without accountability, transparency and consequences for bad apples however the distrust will continue. Google the polls over the last few years, this is becoming far too common a concern.

Lack of support for carding doesn't mean a lack of trust for the police service nor do the TPS turn a blind eye to the bad apples.

The majority of people, beyond the troubled areas of Toronto, don't know what carding is. They've never been carded nor do they understand what the full program does. Certain communities had a lack of trust for the police long before carding, so carding isn't the root of the lack of trust. If you explain carding the the purpose of it, most people see the merits.

The lack of trust is rooted from the ground up, with children being taught never to trust the police and never to "rat" on anyone. Those same people get upset when crimes aren't solved in their neighbourhood....when "nobody saw anything".

[Zipperfish]

If you are minding your own business and not doing anything wrong, the cops have no business being in your face. Carding is not going to help the situation in Toronto. It's sheer police laziness. And, in my opiinon anyway, an unconstitutional and arbitrary detention.

[shockedcanadian]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

Based on the recent Toronto council vote on carding (all but Rob Ford voted against carding), it appears Mark Saunders is experiencing a healthy dose of early disagreement. A recent poll shows more than 50% of citizens against carding.

I would be the first to come to the aid of an officer if I saw them in harms way so my conscience is clear. Without accountability, transparency and consequences for bad apples however the distrust will continue. Google the polls over the last few years, this is becoming far too common a concern.

Lack of support for carding doesn't mean a lack of trust for the police service nor do the TPS turn a blind eye to the bad apples.

The majority of people, beyond the troubled areas of Toronto, don't know what carding is. They've never been carded nor do they understand what the full program does. Certain communities had a lack of trust for the police long before carding, so carding isn't the root of the lack of trust. If you explain carding the the purpose of it, most people see the merits.

The lack of trust is rooted from the ground up, with children being taught never to trust the police and never to "rat" on anyone. Those same people get upset when crimes aren't solved in their neighbourhood....when "nobody saw anything".

Yes, all valid points. You have heard of the term the "Blue Wall of Silence" I'm sure. It work both ways, some of it due to human nature.

There was an article last year in the National Post about an officer who pulled over a drunk plain clothed officer. He was a younger officer and he followed the letter of the law, arresting the offender and he was promptly isolated and had his career ruined as I recall. I'm not sure if it was TPS or not but the issue is the same within many forces.

Without a doubt is starts with the leadership and with the cultural attitudes of the past from officers past their prime (and from a different era). I understand the bond that is built among members of a force, but there has to be an agreed upon attitude that demands accountability within the ranks from within, especially for law breaking and abuses by a few that ruin the public trust of ALL. Just as I believe problem communities need to face their issues locally and honestly.

This is why I am a big advocate of police patrolling these tough areas in pairs just as they did decades ago. Familiarity builds trust. When you see the same cops on the beat you get to know one another and understand each other. You shoot the breeze and without carding anyone the cops know when someone is out of place or out looking for trouble.

[OnTheIce]

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

Yes, all valid points. You have heard of the term the "Blue Wall of Silence" I'm sure. It work both ways, some of it due to human nature.

Not 'ratting' on people in your neighbourhood who are murdering people isn't human nature. It's fear and ignorance.

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

This is why I am a big advocate of police patrolling these tough areas in pairs just as they did decades ago. Familiarity builds trust. When you see the same cops on the beat you get to know one another and understand each other. You shoot the breeze and without carding anyone the cops know when someone is out of place or out looking for trouble.

They do patrol in pairs. Often on foot. It's exactly what TAVIS is all about.

[shockedcanadian]

Some new details provided in this link from G&M:


Security firms want more information from Toronto McDonald’s shooting

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor ... e25572561/

In particular, these passages:

“As I understood, what happened is those guys stood behind the guard in line and touched his gun, maybe as a joke,” he said. “Whether or not there was a threat or whether the guard only thought there was a threat is a very fine line there.”

ValGuard employees are encouraged to pack meals and remain in their armored trucks, he said. If they need to step outside, disarming and re-arming is considered more dangerous than keeping the gun because of the risk of accidental discharge, he said.

Nick Jabbour, general manager of HM Cash, said his employees stay armed on food or washroom breaks as long as they are on route. Criminals may be watching their work patterns, and being seen routinely unarmed makes them vulnerable, he said. But he is not sure what policies the InterCon employee was following or if they could be improved.

[OnTheIce]

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

Some new details provided in this link from G&M:


Security firms want more information from Toronto McDonald’s shooting

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor ... e25572561/

In particular, these passages:

“As I understood, what happened is those guys stood behind the guard in line and touched his gun, maybe as a joke,” he said. “Whether or not there was a threat or whether the guard only thought there was a threat is a very fine line there.”

I'm trying to figure out what Gary Kleiman is looking to accomplish here besides take aim at his competition or get his name in the press. He loves the media.

When one of his guards shot a guy twice leaving a jewelry store in Toronto, why wasn't the video made public? Especially considering his guard shot at the suspect outside. No explanation to the media. No explanation to the family. No video released.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

shockedcanadian shockedcanadian:

As I stated, there is a reason the TPS and it's leadership is not trusted.

Speak for yourself.

Based on the recent Toronto council vote on carding (all but Rob Ford voted against carding), it appears Mark Saunders is experiencing a healthy dose of early disagreement. A recent poll shows more than 50% of citizens against carding.

Which is interesting when you consider that about half of Toronto's population are "recent" immigrants. A third of which have only been here since 2001.
Keeping in mind the number of illegals that end up in Toronto as well. Why do you think we suddenly needed to be issued new health cards that have to be renewed every 5 years?