[TheHopFather]

$1:

hijacked by a mentality that views data mining as equivalent to being deported to Auschwitz

How would you view the government data mining all of your communications? I'm seriously interested in hearing how it is a good thing.

[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

martin14 martin14:

No longer ?

You think you had any in the last 15-20 years anyway ?

Nope.

And it will only get worse, it's again too many people think it's "only happening in Canada".

It's not.

The bolded part is the only part I disagree with. It can better if we make it get better.

To answer Martin's question - yes! I value my privacy, and I protect it. And I agree with Zip, we can take it back, if we feel strongly enough about it.

[Thanos]

Data mining is observation of communications to determine if criminal or terrorist patterns exist. It doesn't involve 'listening in', which requires further and more stringent legal warrants before it can be allowed.

Eliminate the government's ability to use surveillance techniques that have been proven to work against crime and terrorism and there won't be a renewal of freedom and privacy. All that will occur is a surge of crime and potentially lethal terrorism as the government is prevented from doing it's duty.

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

Data mining is observation of communications to determine if criminal or terrorist patterns exist. It doesn't involve 'listening in', which requires further and more stringent legal warrants before it can be allowed.

Eliminate the government's ability to use surveillance techniques that have been proven to work against crime and terrorism and there won't be a renewal of freedom and privacy. All that will occur is a surge of crime and potentially lethal terrorism as the government is prevented from doing it's duty.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015 ... very-year/

[Thanos]

When they arrest me for one of my dirty searches on Bing I'll worry. Until then they can keep monitoring Rahib, Rahkman, Modeep, and Mamoud as closely as they think is necessary until the cows come home.

[Zipperfish]

Thanos Thanos:

No it won't because the natural arc of the universe is for things to get worse, not better. When the conversation is already permanently hijacked by a mentality that views data mining as equivalent to being deported to Auschwitz then the possibility for reasonable disagreement has already been lost.

Well the universe somehow made us, so there's an obvious local exception! And even if you don't like people, then the universe made kittehs.

To be clear about Bill C-51, Trudeau paid a high price. Too high a price if you ask me, because the Liberals rightfully recognized the need for an omnibus security bill addressing an emerging threat that is different than threats we have faced before. The NDP railed against the Bill, but Mulcair has never said he would repeal it.

The data sharing arrangements between a myriad of agencies qwith security responsbilities makes sense.

My issue wiht Bill C-51 is the tipping of the scales to corporate interests. You don't have to be a terrorist in the bill, you just have to be a perceived threat to Canada's economic interests.

The other issue is oversight. This government does not like oversight--well, no government does, but the COnservatvies have taken it levels of unparalleled neurosis--so I frankly have no confidence at all in any of the measures of oversight in the Bill.

[martin14]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The bolded part is the only part I disagree with. It can better if we make it get better.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I value my privacy, and I protect it. And I agree with Zip, we can take it back, if we feel strongly enough about it.

I'm sorry, but you two are dreaming.

Almost every day you can read the US papers, this agency getting info about this that
and the other.

The UK is currently working on the same kind of thing, called the Snooper's Charter.
Even the PM made it clear, following the law is not enough to stop an investigation.

I'll bet it's very close to C-51, if not a carbon copy.


Privacy ?

Don't buy a car with a computer, especially not the new ones that can communicate with the factory.. and the police.. and remotely shut your car off.

Don't pay for anything with a debit or credit card, and then have to wait for a new cashier
to show up, because paying by cash is already not common anymore.

Throw away your cellphone, they have been tracking and taping you for years.

Throw out your computer.

Stop your landline.

Stop watching TV.

And then you can worry about what your neighbors are doing.

[martin14]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

To be clear about Bill C-51, Trudeau paid a high price. Too high a price if you ask me, because the Liberals rightfully recognized the need for an omnibus security bill addressing an emerging threat that is different than threats we have faced before. The NDP railed against the Bill, but Mulcair has never said he would repeal it.

The funny part is, you think they have a choice.

$1:

My issue wiht Bill C-51 is the tipping of the scales to corporate interests. You don't have to be a terrorist in the bill, you just have to be a perceived threat to Canada's economic interests.

The other issue is oversight. This government does not like oversight--well, no government does, but the COnservatvies have taken it levels of unparalleled neurosis--so I frankly have no confidence at all in any of the measures of oversight in the Bill.

[/quote]


You should look at the new Free Trade bill between the US and the EU. TTIP.investor-state dispute settlements
Separate levels of courts for companies suing governments.

kinda like the deal we made with China.

[2Cdo]

For all the NDP and Liberal supporters I will leave you with one certain truism. If either of them get power this fall after the election I will guarantee that bill C-51 will NOT get repealed but in fact will become a tool the new leader uses to solidify his position.

The uproar from Angry Tom and Justine is all theater, nothing more.

100% guarantee it.

[Zipperfish]

martin14 martin14:

The funny part is, you think they have a choice.

I hope I never get as cynical as some of the folks on here.

$1:

You should look at the new Free Trade bill between the US and the EU. TTIP.investor-state dispute settlements
Separate levels of courts for companies suing governments.

kinda like the deal we made with China.

I've seen it on Wikileaks. Nothing particularly new. Ever hear of the gasoline additive MMT? It was a replacement for tetraethyl lead when we got rid of leaded gas. You couldn't use much MMT in the US--it was banned in several states. But when Canada banned it around 1997, the US company that made it, Ethylcorp, sued Canada under NAFTA. MMT was de-banned and we paid something like $13 million to the company for their troubles.

[herbie]

uwish uwish:

herbie herbie:

Senate scandals. pipelines and oil tankers, foreign adventures while Cdn forces starved of equipment, oil at half price while gasoline prices down maybe 20%, lend money for US & Mexican auto plants while they close here, sells Wheat Board to Saudis, tax money spent on advertising (to the lowest common denominator), Bill C-51, proven track record that shows either inability to comprehend or outright opposition to the Charter of Rights, contempt for First Nations, dollar tanking, prices rising, incomes not growing, muzzling scientists, sagging R&D, ass backwards marijuana policy, foreign workers and anti-collective bargaining, poor prospects for seniors...
shall I go on?

your trying to blame all of that on the current government? Like they changed the senate rules right when Harper took over PMO's office, and lets not talk about how NO government likes to fund the military or do I need to point out that it was Chretien who specifically said he hated spending anything on them? And I like how you lump in oil and gas prices as if ANY sitting government has much to do about that..good try though. Your lack of understanding general global economic forces falls out clearly by trying to throw rising food prices and income not growing in the same sentence as if it has anything to do with whomever is the acting government.

I fully understand global economic forces, what I don't understand is cornservatives who act like there's something wrong with anyone who wants to react to them when they fuck up your life.
And still tout a party that promises change and openness and honesty and pulls the same old shit.
When we stuff you in a cattle car and send you to the Gulags, thank Harper for making snooping laws ans Secret Police for us, comrade.

[Thanos]

It was the Liberals that sent Maher Arar to Syria and that did nothing at all when they were in charge when L'il Omar was getting cold showers with a fire hose three times a day in Gitmo. 2Cdo is 100% right. No government changes the rules when they get in. If the GOP wins the White House there isn't a single one of those idiots that will end the (perfectly sensible) drone assassination campaign. Every single bit of criticism that comes from either side in every country are sound bites for domestic political consumption and nothing more.

[Vamp018]

martin14 martin14:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

You will no longer have this thing called 'privacy'.

No longer ?

You think you had any in the last 15-20 years anyway ?

Nope.

And it will only get worse, it's again too many people think it's "only happening in Canada".

It's not.

Eh Canada can get in line behind the US and Mexico and Caribbean Nations. Martin is right so stop bitching and stop the french pissing and moaning. Well put Martin.

[DrCaleb]

martin14 martin14:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The bolded part is the only part I disagree with. It can better if we make it get better.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I value my privacy, and I protect it. And I agree with Zip, we can take it back, if we feel strongly enough about it.

I'm sorry, but you two are dreaming.

Almost every day you can read the US papers, this agency getting info about this that
and the other.

The UK is currently working on the same kind of thing, called the Snooper's Charter.
Even the PM made it clear, following the law is not enough to stop an investigation.

I'll bet it's very close to C-51, if not a carbon copy.

Privacy ?

Don't buy a car with a computer, especially not the new ones that can communicate with the factory.. and the police.. and remotely shut your car off.

Don't pay for anything with a debit or credit card, and then have to wait for a new cashier
to show up, because paying by cash is already not common anymore.

Throw away your cellphone, they have been tracking and taping you for years.

Throw out your computer.

Stop your landline.

Stop watching TV.

And then you can worry about what your neighbors are doing.

My truck can't communicate with the factory. It's missing it's antenna.

Chip&PIN Debit/Credit cards contain no personal information, and can't be tracked. Only the bank knows who is making purchases (on Debit cards), but they don't know of what. Only the retailer knows what you bought, not who you are. Unless you are silly enough to use a store 'rewards' card. TANSTAAFL!

My cellphone has the location beacon turned off. Yayy Blackberry!

My computer is Fort Knox, and the one hanging off the internet has no personal information about me on it.

I have no landline.

I have no cable TV.

And I really don't like my neighbours enough to care what they are doing.

Like I said, I protect my privacy.

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

When they arrest me for one of my dirty searches on Bing I'll worry. Until then they can keep monitoring Rahib, Rahkman, Modeep, and Mamoud as closely as they think is necessary until the cows come home.

You are such a dichotomy! You believe that governments and corporations are the most evil thing since evil was invented, but somehow they become all benevolent as they collect every scrap of data about your digital existence.

Rahib, Rahkman, Modeep, and Mamoud are just the excuse to monitor you! They already have the tools to monitor those bozos, Bill C-51 is just another excuse to ramp up the anal probes on everyone else without ramping up the oversight. And they already are short on manpower to categorize all the data they do collect, how is any of C-51 going to reduce their information backlog?

It's just an excuse to see how far they can go before the torches and pitchforks come out.