[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

But you're saying the conduct of one drunken Sailor ashore affects the operational ability of the Navy? If that was truly the case we would have lost the battle of the Atlantic by 1941

I'll quote the source

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/hmcs-wh ... -1.2839408

$1:

"Norman ordered HMCS Whitehorse home in early July following incidents involving three crew members that included allegations of drunkenness, shoplifting and sexual misconduct"

This isn't just Sailor puking on some officers Oxfords. Any of the above allegations are a crime in of themselves whether here in Canada or the U.S and is certainly against the QR&O's and Ship Standing Orders which they signed their name too when they boarded the ship. and its not just one but at least 3 we know about. Know the crew of an MCDV is averaging about a dozen, so with three of its crew out under arrest or investigation that means 25% of the crew is for reasons of violations of SSO's , QR&O's and transgressions against civilian law that ship was mad non operational

It means it is systemic problem.

$1:

But here's a question. Why did you chose the RN loss of their tot but didn't make mention of March 31st 1972?

what difference does it make, we took even longer to get rid of a silly "tradition" which even then was causing problems

$1:

You and I will never agree on whether this is a good idea or not but I will agree with you on your last point. The biggest problem with this whole scenario is the lack of discipline and leadership and that failure has been coming for quite some time.

No probably not, but discipline goes from the top down and that means the Admirals are in charge. Every Sailor agrees to follow thier orders and those officers and rating above them. If they can't hack it they should get out.

$1:

I won't go back and rehash what I've already posted but suffice to say that had the system been allowed to handle these cases of drunkenness and improper conduct without the meddling of lawyers, the Charter and the new and improved QR&O's they would have been taken care of and if the person didn't respond to corrective action, he would have been gone.

Well they still have summary trials but the events in San Diego go far beyond that, these were alleged crimes committed by Canadian Military Personnel of foreign soil. Those sailors just didn't get drunk and allegedly commit thee crimes, they took an entire ship out of the line because of their irresponsible behavior, disgraced the RCN and undermined the how our allies look at us.

$1:

Is alcohol hurting the Navy, probably not to the extent it was years ago but because we now live in a politically correct world where the flavour of the month counts more than logic, we're going to see more things like the taking away of privileges such as beer and wine at sea without a genuinely valid reason more often.So you can say what you want but this is just another in long line of moves made by the CEO's of the Navy to make sure it runs more like a corporation than the politically incorrect dinosaur they wrongly think it is.

The problem has been there and growing for some time, i certainly covered for one of my mates more than once when they tied when on. But always in the back of my mind i knew that i was going to have to be extra attentive to what they were doing in order to catch anything. It was a mistake to do so but i understand why Sailors then and perhaps now do it. But there are several realities which have to be dealt with. One is what would happen if this all happened again, and the next time it might something even more serious, imagine a RCN member being charged with murder in a foreign port? Then what. That's what this is about and it has nothing at all to do with the Charter or Political Correctness it has to do with getting a grip on a serious problem because clearly there are some Members of the Cf who don't take their oath that seriously.

After all, if those three Sailors did take their oath seriously then none of this would have happened at all.

[Freakinoldguy]

Unless this clown was Admiral of the Fleet I seriously doubt him being in the rattle would make much difference to the effectiveness of the fleet, morally or operationally.

Back in the early 70's there was a young sailor who went ashore and murdered 2 women who ran a convenience store on Esquimalt road. That incident didn't render the Navy non operational so I don't see how these allegations would have done that? BTW he was stone cold sober, just a psycho.

But thanks for posting the article because, it's quite apparent that this became more about saving the Navy and Admiral Normans reputations and less to do with giving some sailor a fair trial before passing judgment.

$1:

In an email on July 9, five days before the story broke in the media, Norman wrote that messaging was critical: "This is our problem and we will lead our way out of it."

Norman was already working on what's called a NAVGEN, a general memo that is released to the entire navy, about the incident. The email shows Norman was already concerned public affairs at the Defence Department would not be able to respond to the looming story quickly enough.

FFS the story hadn't even broken and they were doing damage control about how to respond to it. This is a crisis of their own making because had they dealt with it by using the system rather than fixing a political response and then leaking it in order to mitigate their role in the problem, most of this would have gone quietly away. The Sailor if found guilty could have been properly punished, and it would have shown that there was some real leadership left in the Navy and not a bunch of politico's trying to protect their legacy.

The simplest way to put this is. The Naval Brass fucked up and now everyone has to pay the price for their piss poor attempts at altering public opinion in order to make it look like they're doing something positive about a public relations issue.

It's to bad that sailors aren't as saintly or politically correct as you think they should be because, if they were there'd never be the need to lay another charge. Once again, human foibles ruin it for everyone.

Just looked at Chief Military Judge's web page and there's no Court Martial results that relate to the charges against this sailor and I can't find any reference to it in the upcoming court martials. So have they tried him or not because, given the severity of his charges I seriously doubt the XO, CO or Sqdrn Commander would have the power to properly deal with the charges?

[Jabberwalker]

Now, the next stage is to deal with an Admiral that is prone to temper tantrums ...

[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

Back in the early 70's there was a young sailor who went ashore and murdered 2 women who ran a convenience store on Esquimalt road. That incident didn't render the Navy non operational so I don't see how these allegations would have done that? BTW he was stone cold sober, just a psycho.

That very well maybe however if 25% of your crew is out they're getting arrested for a sundry of activities then its a problem and this is specifically what happened with HMCS Whitehorse

$1:

FFS the story hadn't even broken and they were doing damage control about how to respond to it.

I'm rather thinking that they were working on the problem beforehand if it was spin they would be saying that "this isn't a problem: or "isolated incident" and all that. They came right out and said that this behavior is unaccountable, which is true

$1:

The simplest way to put this is. The Naval Brass fucked up and now everyone has to pay the price for their piss poor attempts at altering public opinion in order to make it look like they're doing something positive about a public relations issue.

You keep on saying that the Brass is at fault "lack of leadership" "failure of leadership" "political correctness". I don't think having CF personnel committing sexual assault is funny, or stealing or anything else, But you're not providing any other ideas other than what was going on before ( summary trials etc) which clearly aren't working Its systemic problem and Bad Hatting Admirals and such really doesnt address the issue of operational readiness.

$1:

I can't find any reference to it in the upcoming court martials.

I did

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/12 ... get-drunk/

".....Norman says the three incidents from last July are in various stages of being dealt with through the military justice system, including a planned court martial of the sailor accused of sexual assault."

[Freakinoldguy]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

$1:

Back in the early 70's there was a young sailor who went ashore and murdered 2 women who ran a convenience store on Esquimalt road. That incident didn't render the Navy non operational so I don't see how these allegations would have done that? BTW he was stone cold sober, just a psycho.

That very well maybe however if 25% of your crew is out they're getting arrested for a sundry of activities then its a problem and this is specifically what happened with HMCS Whitehorse

$1:

FFS the story hadn't even broken and they were doing damage control about how to respond to it.

I'm rather thinking that they were working on the problem beforehand if it was spin they would be saying that "this isn't a problem: or "isolated incident" and all that. They came right out and said that this behavior is unaccountable, which is true

$1:

The simplest way to put this is. The Naval Brass fucked up and now everyone has to pay the price for their piss poor attempts at altering public opinion in order to make it look like they're doing something positive about a public relations issue.

You keep on saying that the Brass is at fault "lack of leadership" "failure of leadership" "political correctness". I don't think having CF personnel committing sexual assault is funny, or stealing or anything else, But you're not providing any other ideas other than what was going on before ( summary trials etc) which clearly aren't working Its systemic problem and Bad Hatting Admirals and such really doesnt address the issue of operational readiness.

$1:

I can't find any reference to it in the upcoming court martials.

I did

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/12 ... get-drunk/

".....Norman says the three incidents from last July are in various stages of being dealt with through the military justice system, including a planned court martial of the sailor accused of sexual assault."

Nobody said having drunken sailors committing sexual assaults was funny and, as the matter of fact if found guilty a long stint in a Federal prison would be appropriate. But, how did this guy get to be 25% of the crew of an MCDV given that they sail with a complement of 31 to 47? Even if there were a couple more it still wouldn't have been that high a percentage unless of course there were numerous other incidents that we never heard about?

I personally think that they've been trying to find a way to get the booze off the ships since the 90's and are just using this as an a very feeble excuse. This case has zero connection to some guy having a beer at sea, especially since they've left the bars on the ships and still open them alongside where these acts were alleged to have happened.

So, here's the 64 thousand dollar question. What happens if this sailor is found not guilty? How does Admiral overreact handle the fact that he punished an entire arm of the Military based on a mistake or improper allegations?

[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

I personally think that they've been trying to find a way to get the booze off the ships since the 90's and are just using this as an a very feeble excuse. This case has zero connection to some guy having a beer at sea, especially since they've left the bars on the ships and still open them alongside where these acts were alleged to have happened.

I tend to agree that they've been looking for a way, but at the end of the day orders is orders. They say no drinking while at sea, so if your taking the Queens Shilling then the only response is "Yes sir/Ma'am".

[Jabberwalker]

Nobody joins to go drinking.

[ShepherdsDog]

Exactly, and as pointed out, these acts took place ashore. Having a beer or a glass of wine at sea isn't really related.