[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I'm starting to rule out 'accident' as the cause.

I don't think anybody ruled it in. Unless by accident you mean poorly trained or trigger finger separatists (or drunk ones, this being Ukraine and all) thought it was a Ukrainian plane, as was indicated by some of their communications.

The latter. I imagine it's pretty tough to fire a missile from military equipment accidentally, so whoever fired it had altitude information and radar transponder information available - and despite the evidence it was a civilian flight, fired anyway.

[andyt]

Well, won't be the first time. Remember the US ship shooting down the civilian Iranian airliner? The Russians downing that Korean jet? Makes me think that identifying civilian aircraft isn't as easy as you say it is.

[saturn_656]

bootlegga bootlegga:

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Someone should "loan" Ukraine a dozen "Wild Weasels" and they can turn anything on the ground that paints a plane into a smoking crater.

Good idea, although why loan them - let's just do it ourselves. At the same time, we can 'accidentily' wipe out their tanks and other heavy weapons.

Maybe it'll teach Putin that arming separatists willy nilly isn't a good idea.

I put loan in quotations for a reason. I'm thinking the military equivalent of a wet lease. Ukraine can provide the basing and fuel, we'll do the rest. All for the low low price of $1 USD per annum.

Maybe we can paint the planes in Ukrainian AF colours too. What's good for the goose...

[saturn_656]

andyt andyt:

Well, won't be the first time. Remember the US ship shooting down the civilian Iranian airliner? The Russians downing that Korean jet? Makes me think that identifying civilian aircraft isn't as easy as you say it is.

Actually the Russians shot down two Korean jets, and what makes it worse is that both were shot down by fighters rather than SAM's.

The fighters were within visual range during the shootdowns!

They knew they were civvies, they just didn't give a fuck.

[peck420]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

They knew they were civvies, they just didn't give a fuck.

Both pilots (both cases) told ground controllers that they were non-hostile aircraft, but ground control ordered them to shoot any way.

And, although they did pull the trigger, this was still USSR days, if they didn't, they, and most of their immediate families, would have found life very uncomfortable for the little amount of it they had left.

No, this does not absolve the pilots of their culpability, but it is not completely fair to say that they didn't give a fuck.

[saturn_656]

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

In either case, both planes were identified visually prior to being shot down.

Somebody (pilots and/or their commanders on the ground) did not give a rats ass. That much is clear.

[BRAH]

Is this SAM, missing 2 missiles, being smuggled out of Ukraine
__

[xerxes]

And now the rebels who shot the planes down are refusing access to investigators in a move that's about as incriminating as it gets.

Send in some Dutch troops to secure the crash site. I'm sure they'd need little motivation to show those vermin who's boss.

[saturn_656]

xerxes xerxes:

And now the rebels who shot the planes down are refusing access to investigators in a move that's about as incriminating as it gets.

That's only temporary. They'll let them in once the rebels have collected and disposed of any incriminating evidence. Missile parts 'n such.

The scene has been "contaminated".

[BRAH]

The Buk system is a sophisticated piece of hardware when a missile is fired it's three times the speed of sound and takes at least 40 seconds to reach it's target which requires a trained crew of four to operate. The rebels could not have received that kind of training in the short time they had custody of it unless the rebels were trained Ukrainian soldiers who went to the other side.

[Strutz]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-un-wants-ukraine-ceasefire-for-crash-probe-1.2710774

[Strutz]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

xerxes xerxes:

And now the rebels who shot the planes down are refusing access to investigators in a move that's about as incriminating as it gets.

That's only temporary. They'll let them in once the rebels have collected and disposed of any incriminating evidence. Missile parts 'n such.

The scene has been "contaminated".

And the more time that passes before they let investigators in the less likely that key evidence will be found.

[saturn_656]

Ukraine claims rebels have already removed 38 bodies from the scene and that they are attempting to remove wreckage.

Investigation teams still do not have access to the site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28383625

[Strutz]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Ukraine claims rebels have already removed 38 bodies from the scene and that they are attempting to remove wreckage.

Investigation teams still do not have access to the site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28383625

I was just reading about that on the CBC site. F*cking assholes that are doing that. How dare they take control of this crime scene. Do they not think that by doing so they are portraying themselves as guilty? From some of the images we have seen there was a fair amount of debris that was not burned up in the crash but, in fact, was completely intact, even some personal belongings of the victims.

A proper investigation is utterly impossible now.

[PostFactum]

Separatists take gold and valuable stuff from bodies. Credit cards, watches etc.