[andyt]

At least 25 dead, 241 injured in Tuesday's violence
Ukraine's top security agency accuses protesters of seizing hundreds of firearms
Thousands of activists armed with fire bombs and rocks defend central square
European Union poised to impose sanctions
IOC rejects Ukrainian athletes request to wear black armbands


But the bad blood runs so high that it's not clear whether an unstoppable force of conflict has been unleashed: The rising rage on both sides has fuelled fears that the 46-million-strong nation in the centre of Europe could be sliding deeper into violence that could lead to its breakup. While most people in western regions of Ukraine resent Yanukovych, he still enjoys strong support in the mostly Russian-speaking eastern and southern regions, where many want strong ties with Russia.

Neither side now appears willing to compromise, with the opposition insisting on Yanukovych's resignation and early elections and the president prepared to fight till the end.

Radical protesters willing to confront police with violence were largely shunned at the start of the demonstrations three months ago, but they have become a key force in recent weeks, with moderate demonstrators bringing them food and some even preparing Molotov cocktails for them. Police also have turned increasingly brutal after law enforcement officers were killed.

[MeganC]

Maybe Ukraine should break up and have one part go and be Ukraine and the other part join Russia and just settle it and stop the killings.

[andyt]

These things happen after a civil war - lots more deaths. And this is basically a proxy war between the West and Russia - could get very ugly. Look at the passions and questions it raises in Canada, with no outside powers pulling strings.

[stratos]

MeganC MeganC:

Maybe Ukraine should break up and have one part go and be Ukraine and the other part join Russia and just settle it and stop the killings.

It might come down to that if the two sides can not come to some sort of understanding/agreement. There would be a lot of blood spilled before they reach the point of separation I'm afraid.

[DrCaleb]

MeganC MeganC:

Maybe Ukraine should break up and have one part go and be Ukraine and the other part join Russia and just settle it and stop the killings.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
(as a historical note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Nightingale)
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_ ... ht_Brigade

Ukrainian civil war won't end well.

[Jabberwalker]

andyt andyt:

These things happen after a civil war - lots more deaths. And this is basically a proxy war between the West and Russia - could get very ugly. Look at the passions and questions it raises in Canada, with no outside powers pulling strings.

I think that the proxy war analogy is a bit of a stretch. The people of the Ukraine have been living, literally, under a Russian boot since 1917, were the subject of starvation during Stalin's collectivization and they want nothing more to do with them. The West gains little by this conflict. The EU would like to have the Ukraine as a member but they will live quite nicely without them as they have up until now. The Russians want their old empire back ... plain and simple. The West doesn't need the Ukraine enough to fight a proxy war over them but the West would be well advised to stop Russia from regaining it's old Soviet "republics". If they try the same trick on Latvia or Lithuania, we really are in a war ... and not a proxy war, either.

[andyt]

As has been reported, 50% of Ukrainians favor closer ties with Russia. That's why this is such a mess, there isn't one dominant side to have their way, with a grumbling minority.

The Russians want influence, so do we. Each side is doing what they see as best for them. You can assign good guy and bad guy roles, but that is what it comes down to. Especially problematic was moving toward NATO membership. Of course the Russians aren't going to be happy about that. Both the EU and NATO way overstretched, it seems to me.

Sure, from my perspective I would like to see Ukraine move more into the Western orbit.

[Jabberwalker]

The Russians want influence, so do we.

The Russians want to dominate in the old fashioned way. The West ... a lot of competing "Wests" do not agree on the colour of shyte for the most part and there is not one, single West that wants or needs to dominate. Rather than looking at it as the old East-West, it would be more accurate to see it as the old Imperial Europe vs the modern federated Europe.

[BRAH]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The Russians want influence, so do we.

The Russians want to dominate in the old fashioned way. The West ... a lot of competing "Wests" do not agree on the colour of shyte for the most part and there is not one, single West that wants or needs to dominate. Rather than looking at it as the old East-West, it would be more accurate to see it as the old Imperial Europe vs the modern federated Europe.

This could ignite a new Cold War and it will be Bush's fault because Obama never does anything wrong.

[Jabberwalker]

This has nothing to do with the United States at all. They need not be involved. No one wants them to be involved. This is about Russia, the Ukraine and the E.U..

[stratos]

Protesters Storm Police Headquarters as Chaos Spreads to Lviv

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrain ... snhp&pos=4

[MeganC]

stratos stratos:

Protesters Storm Police Headquarters as Chaos Spreads to Lviv

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrain ... snhp&pos=4

I thought they had a truce? Guess not.

[BRAH]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

This has nothing to do with the United States at all. They need not be involved. No one wants them to be involved. This is about Russia, the Ukraine and the E.U..

That's wishful thinkinge because Canada and the United States are being dragged into this.

[Jabberwalker]

BRAH BRAH:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

This has nothing to do with the United States at all. They need not be involved. No one wants them to be involved. This is about Russia, the Ukraine and the E.U..

That's wishful thinkinge because Canada and the United States are being dragged into this.

How so? We haven't done anything tangible except talk-talk, so far. It's hard to imagine what we could do anyway, except for the usual menu of sanctions. This really isn't our fight.

If the E.U. fancies itself as an emergent superpower, it's time that they walked the walk. We've already watched them sit in in stunned silence as Yugoslavia broke up. It's time for them to clean up their own back yard.

[andyt]

supposed to be a truce leading to talks. But lots of protests in other west Ukraine cities - this is getting big and the protesters seem very determined.