[Thanos]

The Samson Option includes Israel launching weapons at Europe and Russia. Attacking all the Muslims at once is one thing. Attempting to wipe out everyone else (friend, neutral, and foe alike) is something different altogether. MAD, for example, never included the United States lobbying a few nukes at any Canadian cities that might have escaped being destroyed by a Soviet attack. If the Samson Option is a genuine Israel policy then the mentality of "if we go, then everyone else does too" is a threat to the entire world.

I'm not saying anything else beyond this point and there's nothing else to read into it, especially any sympathy anyone might think that I have for the Muslims because there isn't any, period. All I'm saying is that any country that has a Samson Option on it's books certainly isn't a friend and ally. We need to look past the ridiculousness of the Jew vs Muslim paradigm and start looking more seriously at how much we want to be involved anymore in this region at all.

[martin14]

Thanos Thanos:

if a Muslim attack finally overwhelms them, then the Israelis are no more the friends of the West that we assume them to be than the Muslims are. Once again, where exactly is our moral obligation to defend those who would think up that attacking everyone within range of their weaponry as their last act of malice?

Because everyone in their weapon range is sworn to destroy them.
Some are just more proactive about it than others.


And it is also enough of a MAD threat.
Did you think the Soviets weren't targeting Toronto, or Montreal.... or Calgary ?

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

If the Samson Option is a genuine Israel policy

That`s a pretty big if.......the Americans didn`t seem to have any qualms about the idea of knocking Soviet bombers and ICBMs out of the sky over Canada. The Muricun Homeland would be safe, but we`d be irradiated as all hell from the debris

[Thanos]

Which of the southern and central European states, as critical as they may have been about Israeli settlement expansion or strikes into Gaza, are the sworn enemies of the Jewish state? The Samson Option invites everyone within range of Israeli weaponry to be attacked, not just the Muslims. Scorched earth kills everyone where the fires get set off. It doesn't bother to differentiate between enemy and friend. MAD between two sworn enemies is not a comparable policy. MAD has one enemy taking it's primary enemy down with them. The Samson Option has one country taking everyone else down with them, not just their enemies.

[saturn_656]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

If the Samson Option is a genuine Israel policy

That`s a pretty big if.......the Americans didn`t seem to have any qualms about the idea of knocking Soviet bombers and ICBMs out of the sky over Canada. The Muricun Homeland would be safe, but we`d be irradiated as all hell from the debris

The idea of an integrated North American air defence was to bring down the bomber force well before it reached American or Canadian population centres. Better the NWT end up irradiated than Winnipeg, Toronto, etc

[ShepherdsDog]

Again, this isn`t a confirmed policy, so it`s arguing about a what if scenario. Those evil Jews are going to kill us all, sounds like something created by those who want to undermine Israel

[Thanos]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Again, this isn`t a confirmed policy, so it`s arguing about a what if scenario. Those evil Jews are going to kill us all, sounds like something created by those who want to undermine Israel

Noted historians and military analysts, including Jewish/Israeli ones like Martin Van Crevald say otherwise. The Samson Option is perfectly logical, in a perverse sense, for any nation that feels itself to be under permanent siege even though the facts on the ground, such as Israel's overwhelming superiority over the combined forces of all it's belligerent neighbours put together, say otherwise. Whether the rest of the world has to go along with this, or even think that it has to go along with it, is something else altogether. Maybe the Christian Zionists in the GOP in the United States who are in a permanent Rapture mode get wet at the thought of Israel nuking the Muslim demons and socialist European perverts alike but to sane people it's something else altogether.

I'll admire Israel for one thing though. At least internally they have a non-stop dynamic social conversation about what's right and what's wrong. Factually they're pushed into an aggressive mode due to the unending belligerence of the surrounding Muslims, but at least they have the guts to criticize themselves for some of the approaches they take. Beats being outside of Israel where the friends of Likud automatically make even the mildest questioning of any Israeli policy an act of judenhass equivalent to helping to load the cattle cars heading for Auschwitz.

[andyt]

Thanos Thanos:

My ideas on the whole silly dispute and the participants have been changing somewhat. I still believe that the Israelis have the right to defend themselves. Despite too much propaganda lately to the contrary, the Muslims in the area are not at all innocent of anything. My concern now is why exactly should the entire world be held hostage to this small region's political troubles, and by no means (after the Iraq debacle especially) should the United States be attacking Iran on the behalf of Binyamin Netanyahu. There is no more "tiny, helpless Israel" anymore. They're one of the pre-eminent military powers on the planet now and if Likud wants a goddamn war with Iran then go fight the fucking thing themselves. Don't tell the kids in the US military that it's their obligation to do it for Israel, because it morally, ethically, and legally isn't.

If Israel closed the settlements or managed to make a peace pact with the Palestinians, I think we should have an obligation to defend them (except see below). We should ally with Israel, but not ueber alles, not if they keep taking land. They need to offer the Palestinians a viable state, even if it's not accepted, then we should have an attack on Israel is an attack on us doctrine. We would have obligations, but so would Israel to behave itself in the first place. As for Iran, sounds like they're getting close to a deal, and Yahoo can bleat all he wants about it.

Thanos Thanos:

Reading up on the Samson Scenario pissed me off too. If this is an actual policy on the part of the Israeli government, to randomly shoot off nuclear weapons around the Mediterranean if a Muslim attack finally overwhelms them, then the Israelis are no more the friends of the West that we assume them to be than the Muslims are. Once again, where exactly is our moral obligation to defend those who would think up that attacking everyone within range of their weaponry as their last act of malice?

Once again, why are all our fates tied to one putrid region of the world? The politics there are disgusting and anyone who says we should do it because of some insane Biblical obligation should have their fucking face slapped.

This I had not heard of. It's understandable that desperate people do desperate things - this may just be a ploy for the west to help Israel in dire need. Just like the doomsday device in Strangelove tho, it only works if you tell people about it.

If this is serious thinking in Israel, then they've really come down from the moral high ground - no better than the jihadis. Doubt if most of the Israeli population would agree with this, but then that's never stopped those in charge before, not just in Israel.

[andyt]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Reading up on the Samson Scenario pissed me off too. If this is an actual policy on the part of the Israeli government, to randomly shoot off nuclear weapons around the Mediterranean if a Muslim attack finally overwhelms them, then the Israelis are no more the friends of the West

How is this any different than the American and Soviet policy of MAD??

It's retaliation against an enemy that has attacked you, that's how it's different.

[andyt]

martin14 martin14:

Thanos Thanos:

if a Muslim attack finally overwhelms them, then the Israelis are no more the friends of the West that we assume them to be than the Muslims are. Once again, where exactly is our moral obligation to defend those who would think up that attacking everyone within range of their weaponry as their last act of malice?

Because everyone in their weapon range is sworn to destroy them.
Some are just more proactive about it than others.


And it is also enough of a MAD threat.
Did you think the Soviets weren't targeting Toronto, or Montreal.... or Calgary ?

We are part of Nato.

[commanderkai]

Thanos Thanos:

The Samson Option includes Israel launching weapons at Europe and Russia. Attacking all the Muslims at once is one thing. Attempting to wipe out everyone else (friend, neutral, and foe alike) is something different altogether.

Uh, the Samson Option was developed during the Cold War, where the Soviet bloc was supplying the Arab states with military equipment and expertise. Obviously they're going to target the main suppliers of their enemies, especially if it came down to the point where Israel was all but lost. They didn't target Russia because they thought it'd be a good laugh. The Samson Option is not a recent development in Israel's nuclear weapons policy (yeah yeah, the whole situation is still purely hypothetical since nobody actually knows Israel's nuclear weapons policy)

$1:

MAD, for example, never included the United States lobbying a few nukes at any Canadian cities that might have escaped being destroyed by a Soviet attack. If the Samson Option is a genuine Israel policy then the mentality of "if we go, then everyone else does too" is a threat to the entire world.

No, but the Soviet Union did target anybody and everybody NATO-aligned or friendly, along with China for good measure. Israel targeted the various Arab states (which Israel is still technically at war with, and they all have proven themselves willing to band together to try to destroy Israel) and Arab allies.

Israel is not a threat to the entire world. Far from it. Only people who are blind to history would argue such a thing. The Yom Kippur War is a perfect example of how much Israel restrains itself. The US's policy during the Cold War is once the Soviets cross into West Germany, tactical nukes start flying. Israel, being invaded by both Egypt and Syria, held back on it's nukes, even though their armies were caught off guard, and Egypt and Syria could have besieged Israel proper rather quickly. Once the tides of war turned back to Israel's favor, Israel was fully in reach of wrecking Cairo and Damascus, yet held back.

It's only relatively recently that Israel's military might far surpassed it's neighbors, and even then, it's only with superior technology and training. Acting like Israel has been this invincible juggernaut of military might since it's creation is a stretch of logic and reason.