[saturn_656]

The German Navy has not bought a single NH 90. Last I read they actually wanted a competition between the Cyclone and the NH 90.

Australia is buying the troop transport variant, not the ASW chopper.

Anyway it's all water under the bridge now. 24 of the 28 Cyclones have either been built or are in some stage of assembly. To try and switch to the NH90 now would give us further years of delays.

[BartSimpson]

Xort Xort:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The most egregious f*ck up with the Leopard involved the optics for the main gun. The German optics adjusted for temperature variations while the Canadian optics didn't. That meant that once the Canadian optics were mounted to the turret they were only accurate at the exact temperature at which they were aligned. At any other temperature they were useless.

Do you have a source for this?

General(Ret.) Rick Hillier, OC, CMM, MSC, CD, former Chief of the Defence Staff of the Canadian Forces is my source. I consider him to be authoritative on the topic.

Xort Xort:

The last time I was in a Canadian leopard in Canada both the air temp and the powder temp adjustments worked.

The optics work fine now but they were a raging embarrassment at first. It was one of those things that had to be fixed and given that they've had 30+ years to resolve the problem then I'm pleased to hear that they did.

[bootlegga]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

The German Navy has not bought a single NH 90. Last I read they actually wanted a competition between the Cyclone and the NH 90.

Australia is buying the troop transport variant, not the ASW chopper.

Anyway it's all water under the bridge now. 24 of the 28 Cyclones have either been built or are in some stage of assembly. To try and switch to the NH90 now would give us further years of delays.

It's on order;

$1:

Under the adapted procurements, Germany will additionally acquire 18 of the NH90 NFH maritime variants for operation by the German navy, with the aircraft to replace its AgustaWestland Lynx and Sea King fleets.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rs-383578/

As for the Australians, they bought them for the 808 Naval Air Squadron, but on further review, I read that they will be using them in a logistics role, not ASW. My mistake.

I also agree that it's too late to do anything, but it sure looks like the NH-90 would have been a better purchase, but of course, hindsight is always 20/20.

[Nuggie77]

peck420 peck420:

Nuggie77 Nuggie77:

Welcome to the world of military procurement that is bound by treaties and agreements and the needto appease our allies.
Heaven forbid Canada should buy something straight off the shelf.

What does any of this debacle have to do with Canada's allies?

Our allies were (and are) more then ready to sell us off-the-shelf military equipment that they won't even offer to some of their other allies.

We should have just bought that and moved on.

It was Canada that fucked this one up.

I should've clarified my statement, it is/was the need to appease our allies' defence industries. Look at the CPF program, and the vast array of equipment that came from our allies; main engines from the US, cruise engine from France (crap), gearbox from the Netherlands (meh), diesel generators from Germany (more crap). We didn't buy from them because it was the best on the market, because it certainly wasn't.

[Xort]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

General(Ret.) Rick Hillier, OC, CMM, MSC, CD, former Chief of the Defence Staff of the Canadian Forces is my source. I consider him to be authoritative on the topic.

Ok and when or where did he say that the L2A4s Canada got repacled the EMES 19s with something else?

$1:

The optics work fine now but they were a raging embarrassment at first. It was one of those things that had to be fixed and given that they've had 30+ years to resolve the problem then I'm pleased to hear that they did.

The fire control system that includes the day sight optics are all still the German EMES system, in all the tanks I've seen.

When was this ever an embarrassment? Can you link to a news source? Can you link to a Hillier quote?

Did the night sights stop having an air temp adjustment too?

Did any of the other non standard value controls stop working?

When was this fixed? When was it broken? What was the Canadian replacement for the German day sight? Who made it?

Did the fire control computer get changed too? If not, then how could the same fire control computer that was able to adjust for all the other values not be able to adjust for that one value?

[BartSimpson]

Xort Xort:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

General(Ret.) Rick Hillier, OC, CMM, MSC, CD, former Chief of the Defence Staff of the Canadian Forces is my source. I consider him to be authoritative on the topic.

Ok and when or where did he say that the L2A4s Canada got repacled the EMES 19s with something else?

Read his book and you'll see. It's a damned fine book on its own merits.

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/a-s ... -item.html

I do not have a copy here at work or I'd be happy to cite the chapter and verse for you.

[Xort]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Read his book and you'll see. It's a damned fine book on its own merits.
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/a-s ... -item.html
I do not have a copy here at work or I'd be happy to cite the chapter and verse for you.

I will wait.

[BartSimpson]

Xort Xort:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Read his book and you'll see. It's a damned fine book on its own merits.
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/a-s ... -item.html
I do not have a copy here at work or I'd be happy to cite the chapter and verse for you.

I will wait.

It'll be a long wait because I'm not going to spoon feed it to you. If I happen to bring in the book, fine. If not, oh well. Seems to me that if you really are driving one of these things around then you'd want to know the background of how they came into the CF. Your superiors might find that kind of interest to be a positive thing to comment on when writing up your fitness report (or whatever you folks call an annual review).

[Canadian_Mind]

Xort, I'd like to question when you were/are in, and what regiment you were a part of?

[Xort]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

It'll be a long wait because I'm not going to spoon feed it to you. If I happen to bring in the book, fine. If not, oh well. Seems to me that if you really are driving one of these things around then you'd want to know the background of how they came into the CF. Your superiors might find that kind of interest to be a positive thing to comment on when writing up your fitness report (or whatever you folks call an annual review).

I think you have mixed up the Leopard 1 and the Leopard 2.

Which is reasonable as the current version of the Canadian Leopard 1 is called the Leopard C2.

The C2 is a Leopard 1A5 with Canadian radios and some larger bins on the back of the turret, as well as the EMES 18 FCS.

If you want to claim Hillier as your source for Canadians replacing the German day sight optics on the Leopard 2s, which removed the air temperature adjustments from them, then give me the quote. Or if you are that lazy the page number.

I've already search in google books which has the book you cited, and I can not find anything about Hillier claiming the Canadians changed the optics in the Leopard 2 and lost the air temperature adjustments.

Their is a section about the Leopard 1s fighting the Americans in a war game in Germany with their new night sights and how no other element of the Canadian force could do anything, or the American force fight back effectively.

So again, could you give me the source please?

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Xort, I'd like to question when you were/are in, and what regiment you were a part of?

LdSH(RC). I'm no longer part of the CF; Chances of another tour looked dim so I quit when my term was up.

[Canadian_Mind]

I'm curious about the source as well Bart. Not trying to discredit you, but the gravy sippers are the go-to guys for info on Canadian tanks.

[Jabberwalker]

How much of this delay involves tooling up Bell Textron in Montreal for them to do the assembly?