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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:45 pm
 


ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
As to 'God' giving them the land. Most of the founders of modern day Israel weren't really the religious types. So much so that the Americans a nd British feared that they were going to establish a socialist republic allied with the Soviet Union.....the Russians and the Czechs were the ones who first sold arms to the new state of Israel



I know about the French strating Isreal down the path to nukes but not about Russia and Czechs supplying arms. Not calling you a liar or even calling you out but do you have any links to share or a book name I could look up and find. Would love to read more about this. :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:45 pm
 


commanderkai commanderkai:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
There have been Arab Israelis in the Knesset since 1949 and they have been ministers in the government (including Likud) and speakers of the Knesset. For a short time, Majalli Wahabi was acting President of Israel.


But...but...APARTHEID! :lol:


The apartheid accusation applies to the Palestinians, not to Israeli Arabs. Bombastic and hyperbolic as it may be, as long as they continue to occupy territories that are not part of Israel proper and as long as they continue to build settlements on those lands, they deserve condemnation.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:57 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
The apartheid accusation applies to the Palestinians, not to Israeli Arabs. Bombastic and hyperbolic as it may be, as long as they continue to occupy territories that are not part of Israel proper and as long as they continue to build settlements on those lands, they deserve condemnation.


Bottom line is that the Palestinians will not swear off killing the Jews. Until they do that there's no point in discussing handing back real estate to those people.

For the time being they are effectively at war.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:58 pm
 


stratos stratos:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
As to 'God' giving them the land. Most of the founders of modern day Israel weren't really the religious types. So much so that the Americans a nd British feared that they were going to establish a socialist republic allied with the Soviet Union.....the Russians and the Czechs were the ones who first sold arms to the new state of Israel



I know about the French strating Isreal down the path to nukes but not about Russia and Czechs supplying arms. Not calling you a liar or even calling you out but do you have any links to share or a book name I could look up and find. Would love to read more about this. :)


I haven't got the titles of the books right on hand, because it's covered in several, but just a simple google search brings up a wiki article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Uni ... 93Israeli_
$1:
On May 17, 1948, three days after Israel declared independence, the Soviet Union legally recognized it de jure, becoming the first country to grant de jure recognition to the Jewish state.[4][5] In addition to the diplomatic support, arms from Czechoslovakia, part of the Soviet bloc, were crucial to Israel in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.


These arm shipments would never have been allowed without approval from Moscow.

Herman Wouk tells a great story of the early years of Israel in his his historical novel, The Hope. It covers the years 1947 through 1967


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:30 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
commanderkai commanderkai:
But...but...APARTHEID! :lol:


The apartheid accusation applies to the Palestinians, not to Israeli Arabs. Bombastic and hyperbolic as it may be, as long as they continue to occupy territories that are not part of Israel proper and as long as they continue to build settlements on those lands, they deserve condemnation.


Except you can't exactly conduct apartheid against non-citizens. The whole idea of apartheid is to make a significant segment of your citizenry marginalized, like seen in South Africa. Israel does not conduct such action against its Israeli Arab citizens.

The Palestinians certainly are denied involvement in the Israeli political process, and no doubt have less rights in Israel compared to Israeli citizens, but you can say the same about Canadians living in the United States.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:44 pm
 


$1:
The Palestinians certainly are denied involvement in the Israeli political process, and no doubt have less rights in Israel compared to Israeli citizens, but you can say the same about Canadians living in the United States.


If you think people living under foreign military occupation and colonization in their homeland is analagous to Canadian visitors to the US, you need to give your head a shake.

So take a look at the articles below, all recent, some from the past few days. And no, I'm not a subject matter fanatic and don't have an archive of these (I don't care about the subject that much), they are all from the first 5 pages of results from a quick Google.


First, here's some fun articles from Israel's main papers for you:

$1:
Close the gap in treatment of Israeli Arabs
JERSUALEM POST
By GERSHON BASKIN 1/16/2013 22:08

...

Unfortunately no one can claim that there is equality between Jews and Arabs in Israel. We must be honest with ourselves and admit openly that there is still too much discrimination between Jews and Arabs in this country. The discrimination is systemic, it is not only sociological – discrimination at the level of stereotypes and prejudices between people – it is governmental and it penetrates almost every aspect of life which is under the mandate of the government.

...We should be embarrassed after 65 years by the continued discrimination. This should not even be a subject for discussion.

We should simply admit it and remove it. The State of Israel has to make a decision that it is no longer tolerable for such deep discrimination to continue to exist. We cannot continue to claim our democracy and at the same time continue to accept the discrimination.

Yes, it is also true that they feel great empathy and solidarity with their brothers and sisters who are fighting for liberation and independence from Israel’s occupation over them in Palestine. But at the same time, they remain Israeli citizens and they are struggling for full equality within the State of Israel and this struggle is just.

The author is the co-chairman of IPCRI, the Israel Palestine Center for Research and Information, a columnist for The Jerusalem Post and the initiator and negotiator of the secret back channel for the release of Gilad Schalit.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Cont ... aeli-Arabs


$1:
The glorious State of Israel and its anti-Arab discrimination
HAARETZ
By Yitzhak Laor | Apr.15, 2013 | 3:21 AM | 23

...

It's easy for Israelis to deceive themselves about the occupied territories. There is no restraint on the dark military dictatorship there, but it is "temporary," until a solution is found. However, since "the Palestinians don't want a solution" then "we are in the right," a supreme and literal pleasure.

In contrast, Israel's Arab citizens live under racist discrimination that no self-deception can mask.


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-glor ... m-1.515462


$1:
Israeli courts must end anti-Arab discrimination
Israeli courts discriminate against Israeli Arabs, there is no doubt about it.

Haaretz Editorial | Aug.03, 2011 | 2:42 AM

Israeli courts discriminate against Israeli Arabs. If there had been any doubt left about this, a comprehensive, first-of-its-kind study commissioned by Israel's Courts Administration and the Israel Bar Association just determined it decisively.

According to the study, whose main findings were reported by Tomer Zarchin in yesterday's Haaretz, Arabs are given jail sentences more often than Jews convicted of the same offenses, and Arabs receive longer sentences than Jews who are jailed. The study's authors conclude that their most conspicuous finding is the tendency of Israeli courts to treat Arab defendants more harshly: When Arabs wind up in court, they are more likely to be convicted; when convicted, they are likely to receive a stiffer sentence than a Jew normally would. It's hard to imagine a more disturbing fact.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/op ... n-1.376666


$1:
Israel must end discrimination against Arab college graduates
Israeli Arabs, who make up 22 percent of the population, suffer from exclusion and discrimination.

Haaretz Editorial | Jun.15, 2012 | 1:18 AM | 5

..But Israeli Arabs, who make up 22 percent of the population, suffer from exclusion and discrimination. Nowhere does this discrimination stand out more than among college graduates. Only 1.3 percent of Arabs who graduate in high-tech fields find work in their specialties, despite claims by high-tech leaders that they are desperate for workers. Most of these Arab college graduates are forced to compromise and work as teachers.

There is no doubt that the Israeli economy discriminates against Arab workers. Research by the Bank of Israel shows that not hiring Arabs costs the economy NIS 31 billion a year in lost production. On top of that, we must add the growing frustration of a community that is progressing, acquiring education and wants to integrate − only to discover that all doors are locked.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-must-end-discrimination-against-arab-college-graduates-1.436533



$1:
Israel's Arabs must find new ways to be heard
Outsiders to both Israeli and Arab politics, Israeli Arabs must use their unique position to push for their civil rights.

HAARETZ
By Ziyad Abou Habla | Apr.24, 2013 | 6:47 PM |
In the past few years, we have seen a sharp rise in violence against Israel's Arab population, which we can tack onto a long list of crimes against Arabs. Taken together, these incidents are reminiscent of dark periods in other countries, like the United States during the 1960s and South Africa under apartheid.

...The violence against Arabs is a product of racism and discrimination, which have become mainstream in Israeli society. These attitudes have increased in the past decade, especially after the events of October 2000, which led to the rise to power of extreme right-wing Israeli political parties that see Arabs as a fifth column and wish to make their citizenship contingent on a pledge of allegiance on their part.

The increase in racism and discrimination in Israel is mainly the result of a growing demand among Israeli Jews for an ethnocratic definition of the state. This is clearly shown in the research of professor Sammy Smooha from Haifa University, who found that 80 percent of Jews believe that a condition of citizenship for non-Jews should be a declaration of loyalty to the state as a Jewish and democratic entity and that 63 percent of Jews see the Arabs' high birthrate as a demographic threat. In other words, every Arab baby is thought to undermine the Jewish definition of the state.
There is no dispute that the Arab population in Israel received Israeli citizenship by force at the hands of a brutal military regime. The coercion may have ceased in the 1960s, but this is no reason to exclude the Israel's Arabs from peace talks, and this is no reason to prevent them from taking every measure to achieve equality.

However, the ineffective use Arabs make of the Israeli parliament – with its isolationist approach and multiplicity of parties – has led to marginal, insignificant Arab representation in the Knesset, party quarrels that have atrophied the umbrella High Follow-Up Committee for Arab Citizens of Israel and the weakening of the position of the Arab leadership....


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-s ... m-1.517392


And just to twist the knife a little, some articles from the West:

$1:
Israelis favour discrimination against Arabs - poll
TELEGRAPH.CO.UK
A majority of Israeli Jews favour introducing discriminatory policies against the country's Arab population and would support an "apartheid" system in the West Bank if it were ever annexed, an opinion poll has shown.

By Adrian Blomfield, Jerusalem
3:24PM BST 23 Oct 2012
...More than two-thirds of those questioned by Dialog, an opinion pollster, said they would oppose suffrage for the 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank were it to be annexed to Israel.

...Palestinians, as well as some liberal Israelis, warn that the growing Jewish settler population in the West Bank means that the creation of a Palestinian state -- the cornerstone of a “two-state solution” -- is looking increasingly unviable.

The survey found that a majority of the Jewish public -- 59 per cent -- say they want a system that gives preference to Jews applying for civil service jobs. Arabs, who constitute 20 per cent of the Israeli population, complain such a policy unofficially exists already.

Just under half of respondents, 49 per cent, said they want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones, while 42 per cent said they did not want to live in the same building as Arabs and did not want their children to go to schools that also admit Arabs.

Tellingly, 58 per cent of those surveyed said Israel already practices a system of apartheid against Palestinians, an opinion normally only voiced by the Jewish state’s staunchest critics.

...This [survey] lays bare an image of Israeli society, and the picture is a very, very sick one,” Gideon Levy, a prominent commentator, wrote in an opinion piece accompanying the poll.

“Now it is not just critics at home and abroad, but Israelis themselves who are openly, shamelessly, and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists.

“We’re racists, the Israelis are saying, we practice apartheid and we even want to live in an apartheid state. Yes, this is Israel.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -poll.html


$1:
The new Israeli apartheid: Poll reveals widespread Jewish support for policy of discrimination against Arab minority

47 per cent of respondents would like to see Israel's Arab citizens stripped of their citizenship rights

THE INDEPENDENT UK
Catrina Stewart
Jerusalem
Tuesday 23 October 2012


A third of respondents believe that Israel's Arab citizens should be denied the vote, while almost half – 47 per cent – would like to see them stripped of their citizenship rights and placed under Palestinian Authority control, according to Israel's liberal Haaretz newspaper, which published the poll's findings yesterday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 23548.html

$1:
Israel’s Arab voters: What’s the point?
THE ECONOMIST

Arab Israelis are too disheartened to take the forthcoming election seriously
Jan 12th 2013 | KUFR QASEM |From the print edition

...

No Israeli government has ever included an Arab party in its coalition; even if it tried to do so, it is unlikely that any Arab party would accept, unless Israel first resolved its conflict with the Palestinians.

...The results of this Arab retreat from national politics can be seen in the deep ruts in the streets of Kufr Qasem, the Arab-Israeli town closest to Israel’s metropolis, Tel Aviv. The town of 20,000 has no police station. Gangland gunfire often shatters the night. Unemployment among Arabs nationwide is twice as high as among Jews; 66% of Arab children are deemed poor, compared with 24% of Jewish children.

Few Jewish parties seem keen to reverse the trend; they largely avoid campaigning in Arab towns. Twenty years ago more than 60% of Arabs voted for Jewish parties; last time fewer than a fifth did. As the Jewish electorate grows more sectarian and hawkish, fewer of its politicians try to win Arab voters back. The handful of Arab members of parliament representing Jewish-led parties looks set to halve...

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-ea ... g-election



$1:
New Israeli laws will increase discrimination against Arabs, critics say

One legalizes 'admissions committees' in towns to vet would-be residents on their social 'suitability.' The other imposes fines for commemorating Nakba Day, seen as a protest of Israel's independence.

March 24, 2011|By Edmund Sanders, Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Jerusalem — Israel's conservative-led Knesset adopted two controversial laws Wednesday that critics warned will worsen discrimination against the nation's Arab minority and make it easier to prevent Arab citizens from moving into hundreds of Jewish towns and villages.

One law legalizes the practice of using "admissions committees" in small towns in the Negev and Galilee to reject would-be residents based on their social "suitability," a vague term opponents fear could be used to bar gays, black Israelis, single women, Christians, Muslims and secular families as well as Arabs.

The second law is aimed at imposing fines on Arab towns, local authorities and state-funded organizations that commemorate Nakba Day, which falls near Israel's Independence Day. Some Arab Israelis refer to the day Israel gained statehood as a nakba, or catastrophe, because it resulted in the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians.

"This is not just a racist law, it's an oppressive law," said Hassan Jabareen, founder of Adalah, an Israeli advocacy group focusing on legal rights of Arab citizens. "It sends the public message that Israel not only doesn't respect the history and memory of the Palestinian people, but they now prohibit Palestinians living under their regime from commemorating their own history and identity."

He said the laws are the latest example of state-condoned discrimination against Arab citizens, who also receive unequal treatment in their ability to purchase or lease land and to obtain citizenship for spouses. He said the laws would heighten tension within Israel's Arab minority, which accounts for about 20% of the population.


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/24 ... s-20110324


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:53 pm
 


And because a picture is worth 1000 words...


Image

Image


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:54 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
If you think people living under foreign military occupation and colonization in their homeland is analagous to Canadian visitors to the US, you need to give your head a shake.


It's not apartheid. Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens, and as such, cannot be victims under some apartheid regime similar to South Africa.

There's really no way around this. As much as Israeli Arabs might face some issues in Israel, it does not mean Israel operates as an apartheid state, unless any perceived issues from minority populations can be considered apartheid in a developed nation.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:11 pm
 


We can argue semantics all day - I don't see any definition of appartheid that requires the subrodinate group to have citizenship - in fact denial of full citizenship status could be the primary means of opression. The most common definition of apartheid I can find is: A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.

But call it what you want; a turd by any other name smells just as bad - the fact that this one has peanuts in it instead of corn doesn't mean it's not a turd.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:21 pm
 


Yah.... the West Bank and Gaza Arabs are being denied Israeli citizenship :roll: Sort of hard to be granted citizenship by a nation you refuse to acknowledge


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:30 pm
 


ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Yah.... the West Bank and Gaza Arabs are being denied Israeli citizenship :roll: Sort of hard to be granted citizenship by a nation you refuse to acknowledge

Nice straw man. Nobody is saying they should have Israeli citizenship. The problem is that they are ruled by a foreign military power. They should be citizens of a sovereign state called Palestine. roll:


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:31 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
We can argue semantics all day - I don't see any definition of appartheid that requires the subrodinate group to have citizenship - in fact denial of full citizenship status could be the primary means of opression. The most common definition of apartheid I can find is: A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.


Except, AGAIN, Israeli Arabs are granted full legal, political, and economic opportunities of any other Israeli citizen. Are there some flaws? No doubt, but the same can be said about any minority in the United States or Canada, but the Israeli government does not systematically oppress its own citizens, which is what Apartheid did back in South Africa. There is one major restriction that can be described as segregation, which is the restrictions placed upon allowing Israeli Arabs to live in settlements. Stretching that to apartheid is laughable.

Calling Israel an apartheid state is, in my view, similar to describing the West Bank and Gaza as concentration camps.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:46 pm
 


The term may be hyperbole so call it whatever you want. But the fact remains Israeli Arabs are second-class citizens, like American blacks before the civil rights era. Calling it just "some problems" is a just euphamism to sanitize the issue.

And in the Occupied Territories, it's an oppressor-and-oppressed relationship. It's not just Isreali troops guarding entrance points to Israel, they are bulldozing Palestinian homes, seizing land, stealing and rationing water, rationing electricity and basic goods and services, building illegal settlements, controlling the daily movements and activities of locals, and so on. Maybe the world needs to invent a new word just for the "some problems" Israel perpetrates, just as apartheid was invented for S. Africa. "Occupation" doesn't seem to capture it all.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:07 pm
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
The term may be hyperbole so call it whatever you want. But the fact remains Israeli Arabs are second-class citizens, like American blacks before the civil rights era. Calling it just "some problems" is a just euphamism to sanitize the issue.


No, Israeli Arabs are not second class citizens. None of your links actually highlight how the Israeli government is placing restrictions or disenfranchising its Israeli Arab population. The Israeli Arab population might be akin to the African American population in the United States today, but state sanctioned discrimination against Israeli Arabs, creating "second class citizens" is not happening in Israel, no more than the United States is actively making the African American population second class citizens.

Also, you should read up on the Turkish occupation of Cyprus, just to let you realize that Israel isn't exactly unique in how it treats the West Bank.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:24 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
And because a picture is worth 1000 words...

Only when they're real pictures :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bank_ ... mallah.jpg


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