[Curtman]

FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:

Curtman Curtman:

Why can't I just support tolerance and oppose oppression when I see it? I don't have to support Iran to condemn Israeli settlements, that's a false dichotomy. Israel chooses espansion over peace, nobody else makes that decision for them.

Mm-hmm, and there are many openly homosexual men and women in Gaza, right? Oh, wait, Hamas probably had most of them brutally executed, hence why you do not see many pride parades or rainbow flags in Gaza. If you support the Palestinian cause, you are implicitly supporting of the oppression the LGBT community in the Middle East.

Again, you can have one or the other: equality or Palestine. If you support Palestine, you just declared that you condone bigotry.

False dichotomy. Bullies and thieves don't get my support. Either of the two sides.

[2Cdo]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Some of the comments on here

Yeah, I can't imagine the nerve of a country that has had its existence threatened everyday of its 60 some odd year existence feeling a little intolerant and hostile towards those that have been threatening their existence.

It's so easy to look at it with western world eyes because our existence has been pretty damn secure for a long time now. How many times has Israel been invaded/attacked in its short, modern day existence? And by multiple countries at once.

But yeah, Israel is the problem there

The anti-Israel brigade doesn't have a clue about Israel.

[desertdude]

Wow....thread overloaded with tired old rethoric, that no one other than the most die hard supporters of the illegal Israeli military occupation of Palestine really cares about anymore.

These folks must be doing something right to have the JDL's panties in a twist.

[2Cdo]

desertdude desertdude:

Wow....thread overloaded with tired old rethoric, that no one other than the most die hard supporters of the illegal Israeli military occupation of Palestine really cares about anymore.

These folks must be doing something right to have the JDL's panties in a twist.

Speaking of rhetoric.

[Curtman]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Some of the comments on here

Yeah, I can't imagine the nerve of a country that has had its existence threatened everyday of its 60 some odd year existence feeling a little intolerant and hostile towards those that have been threatening their existence.

It's so easy to look at it with western world eyes because our existence has been pretty damn secure for a long time now. How many times has Israel been invaded/attacked in its short, modern day existence? And by multiple countries at once.

But yeah, Israel is the problem there

The anti-Israel brigade doesn't have a clue about Israel.

How about these folks? Anti-semites who haven't a clue either?

IJV Basis of Unity / VJI Entente de principles

$1:

We are a group of Jews in Canada from diverse backgrounds, occupations and affiliations who have in common a strong commitment to social justice and universal human rights. We come together in the belief that the broad spectrum of opinion among the Jewish population of this country is not reflected by those institutions which claim authority to represent the Jewish community as a whole. We further believe that individuals and groups within all communities should feel free to express their views on any issue of public concern without incurring accusations of disloyalty.

We have therefore resolved to promote the expression of alternative Jewish voices, particularly in respect of the grave situation in the Middle East, which threatens the future of both Israelis and Palestinians as well as the stability of the whole region. We are guided by the following principles:

1. Human rights are universal and indivisible and should be upheld without exception. This is as applicable in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories as it is elsewhere.

2. Palestinians and Israelis alike have the right to peaceful and secure lives.

3. Peace and stability require the willingness of all parties to the conflict to comply with international law.

4. There is no justification for any form of racism, including anti-Semitism, anti-Arab racism or Islamophobia, in any circumstance.

5. The battle against anti-Semitism is vital and is undermined whenever opposition to Israeli government policies is automatically branded as anti-Semitic.

These principles are contradicted when those who claim to speak on behalf of Jews in Canada and other countries consistently put support for the policies of an occupying power above the human rights of an occupied people. The Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip face appalling living conditions with desperately little hope for the future. We declare our support for a properly negotiated peace between the Israeli and Palestinian people and oppose any attempt by the Israeli government to impose its own solutions on the Palestinians.

It is imperative and urgent that independent Jewish voices find a coherent and consistent way of asserting themselves on these and other issues of concern. We hereby reclaim the tradition of Jewish support for universal freedoms, human rights and social justice. The lessons we have learned from our own history compel us to speak out. We therefore commit ourselves to make public our views on a continuing basis and invite other concerned Jews to join and support us.

Any person is free to oppose Israel for their aggression.

[2Cdo]

Curtman Curtman:

Any person is free to oppose Israel for their aggression.

Yep they sure are but when they constantly ignore or downplay any violence done AGAINST Israel then they are just hypocrites, or worse.

[Curtman]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Curtman Curtman:

Any person is free to oppose Israel for their aggression.

Yep they sure are but when they constantly ignore or downplay any violence done AGAINST Israel then they are just hypocrites, or worse.

Israel can choose peace any time it wants. When it stops the settlements it will show that it sincerely wants peace. Until that time, they invite the violence.

[andyt]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Curtman Curtman:

Any person is free to oppose Israel for their aggression.

Yep they sure are but when they constantly ignore or downplay any violence done AGAINST Israel then they are just hypocrites, or worse.

Fair enough. What is a person who consistently downplays Israeli actions including the land grab?

[2Cdo]

Curtman Curtman:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Curtman Curtman:

Any person is free to oppose Israel for their aggression.

Yep they sure are but when they constantly ignore or downplay any violence done AGAINST Israel then they are just hypocrites, or worse.

Israel can choose peace any time it wants. When it stops the settlements it will show that it sincerely wants peace. Until that time, they invite the violence.

What's your opinion of Egypt moving anti-air missile batteries to their border of Israel to deal with "terrorists" who have no planes?

Using your logic they are inviting violence and Israel should attack.

[2Cdo]

andyt andyt:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Curtman Curtman:

Any person is free to oppose Israel for their aggression.

Yep they sure are but when they constantly ignore or downplay any violence done AGAINST Israel then they are just hypocrites, or worse.

Fair enough. What is a person who consistently downplays Israeli actions including the land grab?

By land grab do you mean territory Israel took after being invaded by every Islamic nation surrounding it?

Or do you mean the land grab that Palestinians claim is theirs from the beginning of time, ignoring the fact that there were Jews in the area long before Islam reared it's ugly expansionist head?

[FieryVulpine]

Unsound Unsound:

And Toewsed!

Au contraire! The Palestinians as a whole are not victims. What kind of victims strike at civilian targets? What kind of victims oppress their own minorities? (The aforementioned LGBT community, and I presume life is not pleasant if you are a Palestinian Christian.) What kind of victims take their own mentally disabled and turn them into unwilling suicide bombs? As I see it, the Palestinians are as much belligerents as the Israelis and will get no special consideration from me.

Hell, Israel is the more preferable of the two belligerents because Israel affords all its citizens equal rights before the law regardless of sexuality or religion while the Palestinian territories are either fascist (Gaza) or a kleptocracy (the West Bank, remember how much money Arafat pocketed for himself?)

Curtman Curtman:

False dichotomy. Bullies and thieves don't get my support. Either of the two sides.

If you can live with your own moral myopia and hypocrisy, then it is ultimately not my problem. And considering how the Arabs stole the Levant from the Byzantine Empire in the eighth century, I say turnabout is fair play. Hell, I am wondering when Greece will get occupied Constantinople and Anatolia back because it makes perfect sense if we are running by that line of logic.

[2Cdo]

FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:

Unsound Unsound:

And Toewsed!

Au contraire! The Palestinians as a whole are not victims. What kind of victims strike at civilian targets? What kind of victims oppress their own minorities? (The aforementioned LGBT community, and I presume life is not pleasant if you are a Palestinian Christian.) What kind of victims take their own mentally disabled and turn them into unwilling suicide bombs? As I see it, the Palestinians are as much belligerents as the Israelis and will get no special consideration from me.

Hell, Israel is the more preferable of the two belligerents because Israel affords all its citizens equal rights before the law regardless of sexuality or religion while the Palestinian territories are either fascist (Gaza) or a kleptocracy (the West Bank, remember how much money Arafat pocketed for himself?)

Curtman Curtman:

False dichotomy. Bullies and thieves don't get my support. Either of the two sides.

If you can live with your own moral myopia and hypocrisy, then it is ultimately not my problem. And considering how the Arabs stole the Levant from the Byzantine Empire in the eighth century, I say turnabout is fair play. Hell, I am wondering when Greece will get occupied Constantinople and Anatolia back because it makes perfect sense if we are running by that line of logic.

I'd rep you for that post!

[martin14]

FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:

or a kleptocracy (the West Bank, remember how much money Arafat pocketed for himself?)

At least $1.3 Billion

In addition to killing hundreds of people.

[Curtman]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

What's your opinion of Egypt moving anti-air missile batteries to their border of Israel to deal with "terrorists" who have no planes?

Using your logic they are inviting violence and Israel should attack.

No, if Egypt was building settlements in Israel and arming them with anti-air missiles THEN you'd have a point. Using your logic, defending yourself and attacking your neighbour are the same thing. Its bizarre that you'd equate the two.

Will Israel accept having an Islamic state instead of a dictator in Egypt? That's the reason for the missiles. Because Israel thinks its the middle east police.

[andyt]

FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:

Unsound Unsound:

And Toewsed!

Au contraire! The Palestinians as a whole are not victims. What kind of victims strike at civilian targets? What kind of victims oppress their own minorities? (The aforementioned LGBT community, and I presume life is not pleasant if you are a Palestinian Christian.) What kind of victims take their own mentally disabled and turn them into unwilling suicide bombs? As I see it, the Palestinians are as much belligerents as the Israelis and will get no special consideration from me.

Hell, Israel is the more preferable of the two belligerents because Israel affords all its citizens equal rights before the law regardless of sexuality or religion while the Palestinian territories are either fascist (Gaza) or a kleptocracy (the West Bank, remember how much money Arafat pocketed for himself?)

Curtman Curtman:

False dichotomy. Bullies and thieves don't get my support. Either of the two sides.

If you can live with your own moral myopia and hypocrisy, then it is ultimately not my problem. And considering how the Arabs stole the Levant from the Byzantine Empire in the eighth century, I say turnabout is fair play. Hell, I am wondering when Greece will get occupied Constantinople and Anatolia back because it makes perfect sense if we are running by that line of logic.

No, Unsound called it. (Finally somebody that gets how Toewsing actually works). Supporting a Palestinian state doesn't mean supporting what the Palestinians actually do in that state. I wonder how gay friendly the Jewish settlers are?


Are you really going to go back hundreds and thousands of years? Shouldn't Italy get the area back then. Or the Canaanites would have a pretty good claim against the Jews. Or Og against Trog.

The Palestinians are there. Pushing them into the Jordan is just as reprehensible as Arabs wanting to push the Israelis into the sea. Both sides need to cut it out.

You're right, the Palestinians are as much belligerents as the Israelis. But then you and others here never comment on Israeli aggression, that's always excused. It's exactly what 2Cdo accuses people who only complain about Israeli actions of - hypocrisy.