[QBall]

God knows if Adam Vaughan's bullet ban was in place this could have all been avoided.

[Unsound]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Bodah Bodah:

The underlying problem is lack of basic family structure. Mom and Dad are required.

There's too many one parent families out there.

Makes you wonder how all those families that lost fathers in WWI and WWII survived without resorting to non-stop gun crime.

Great question, I think there are a few things to consider. T

1) That was a different time with a more solid sense of community. From what I'm told anyways. Neighbours and the guy running the corner grocery would help out a bit and show a good example.

2) An absent father who's absent because he made the ultimate sacrifice in war for his country is still setting a good example and is probably still a presence in the childs life even though he's not actually there. I can see young men growing up with the feeling that they have to do something with their lives and opportunities in order to make their father's sacrifice mean something. Probably not so inspiring when dad left because bveing a dad is hard.

3) Is there data on whther there actually were social effects due to the number of fatherless children in the aftermath of those wars?

[andyt]

Absent men, more than absent fathers, I think is a big piece. What 'saves' children is having one mentor in their lives, doesn't have to be a parent. But if men are absent in the community, there are no mentors for the boys. For instance the black community in America - racism and poverty disempowered the men, didn't give them the status as breadwinners, heads of families. So there's a whole culture there where men mostly remain boys and don't take on responsibilities of adults.

So we can throw poverty in the mix, whether racism is involved or not. And, some cultures, such as the Caribbean ones, just have more gun violence than others, it's more normal.

But you can be the fatherless son of poor Carribean immigrants and it's still unlikely that you'll shoot anybody, or grow up a criminal (just more likely). At some point it gets personal - ie some people grow up to be worse assholes than others. And nobody has figured out what goes into that mix, because there are so many factors including presumably the genetic lottery.

But definitely, the men aren't setting the boundaries any more for young men the way they used to - in all communities. When I was a young punk, an older guy (later learned he was a Korean vet) taught me and my buddy a lesson. We were mouthing off in front of his wife, he came over and bam - one punch to each of us and we were rocking on our feet. Taught me to not let my mouth lead me into trouble, and realized I wasn't' cut out to be a tough guy. Decided the hippies were more my thing. You would never get this now, because the guy would be scared of getting charged and sued for abusing a couple of darling little boys, instead of imparting a valuable lesson to a couple of guys who thought they were tough.

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

Absent men, more than absent fathers, I think is a big piece. What 'saves' children is having one mentor in their lives, doesn't have to be a parent. But if men are absent in the community, there are no mentors for the boys. For instance the black community in America - racism and poverty disempowered the men, didn't give them the status as breadwinners, heads of families. So there's a whole culture there where men mostly remain boys and don't take on responsibilities of adults.

So we can throw poverty in the mix, whether racism is involved or not. And, some cultures, such as the Caribbean ones, just have more gun violence than others, it's more normal.

But you can be the fatherless son of poor Carribean immigrants and it's still unlikely that you'll shoot anybody, or grow up a criminal (just more likely). At some point it gets personal - ie some people grow up to be worse assholes than others. And nobody has figured out what goes into that mix, because there are so many factors including presumably the genetic lottery.

But definitely, the men aren't setting the boundaries any more for young men the way they used to - in all communities. When I was a young punk, an older guy (later learned he was a Korean vet) taught me and my buddy a lesson. We were mouthing off in front of his wife, he came over and bam - one punch to each of us and we were rocking on our feet. Taught me to not let my mouth lead me into trouble, and realized I wasn't' cut out to be a tough guy. Decided the hippies were more my thing. You would never get this now, because the guy would be scared of getting charged and sued for abusing a couple of darling little boys, instead of imparting a valuable lesson to a couple of guys who thought they were tough.

While you make many good points here, the fact is, you are wrong. Now apologize then fuck off.

[Tricks]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Had no Dad Save for weekend visits and I turned out fine.

Well....

[EyeBrock]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I'd be curious to know because frankly, the no Dad excuse gets tiring after a while.

That's the thing, it's not an excuse. It's a fact.

People want to talk about "root causes". This is one of those root causes. Passing it off as an excuse is looking a problem in the face and ignoring it.

It's Jamaican culture. Fatherless families, women with multiple fathers to their children, drug gangs, turf wars, toughest guy syndrome. All very prominent in Jamaica.

Personally I'm weary of reading the studies or listening to the Jamaican 'community' leaders blaming everybody but the Jamaican community for their problems.

[andyt]

We have similar shit happening in BC, yet have very few Jamaicans - never hear about Jamaicans shooting each other. No doubt Carribbean culture contributes, but gangs come from all cultures. It's drug profits that beckon with a way to get rich quick, along with a society that values wealth no matter how ill gotten. When the Financial industry sets the example it does, gotta expect that the small timers try to emulate them in their own fashion. Anything for a buck. A topic such as this gets way more discussion and outrage than the ripoffs on Wall St.

[DrCaleb]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Personally I'm weary of reading the studies or listening to the Jamaican 'community' leaders blaming everybody but the Jamaican community for their problems.

Same can be said in Edmonton, but replace 'Jamaican' with 'Somali'. One person shot and killed in a crowded bar full of Somalis, as gangland retribution - nobody saw a thing. But Somali Community leaders blame EPS because they aren't mind readers.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

We have similar shit happening in BC

And you'll soon have more of it given the growing numbers of Mexicans in the Vancouver and Delta areas.

[andyt]

Brock and Caleb - we have the same shit and have neither Somalis nor Jamaicans. Way too simple an answer to just point at specific communities. At least in Vancouver we seem to be much more multicultural about it, with one gang even calling themselves the UN gang for that very reason.

And Mexicans may increase the violence, but we've already got our own.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

At least in Vancouver we seem to be much more multicultural about it, with one gang even calling themselves the UN gang for that very reason.

Celebrate Diversity!

andyt andyt:

And Mexicans may increase the violence, but we've already got our own.

They'll increase it, all right. Brace yourselves.

[Thanos]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

At least in Vancouver we seem to be much more multicultural about it, with one gang even calling themselves the UN gang for that very reason.

Celebrate Diversity!

andyt andyt:

And Mexicans may increase the violence, but we've already got our own.

They'll increase it, all right. Brace yourselves.

Bah. Merely the chaff of the lower classes and other miscillaneous untermensch sorting themselves out. No reason for the rest of us to be worried.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

Brock and Caleb - we have the same shit and have neither Somalis nor Jamaicans. Way too simple an answer to just point at specific communities.

My example wasn't meant to blame a specific community, other than society in general. If people don't come foreward, regardless of what community they are in, nothing will ever change.

There is gangland violence in other communities in Edmonton, but they already know if they point the finger, police will take care of it. Quickly, and decisively.

[raydan]

[Bodah]

Gunnair Gunnair:

I won't argue too hard that it may contribute, but it does not in any way shape or form take away from the fact that the shitpumps in this case made a conscious choice to have a shoot out in a crowd in cluding women and children They made a conscious choice, and blaming the lack of a father (if that is even relevant here) excuses that choice.

Disagree.

First it's not an excuse nor should it be a consideration during sentencing, ever. I want the book thrown at these people, we have laws in place that allow it. But what we need now evidently, are judges that are willing to lay down the law.

A lot of kids grow up without fathers who do fine, and some kids grow up with two parents who don't. But if I had to take my chances and roll the dice I'd go with the two parent option.

I think most people would choose the same as well for logical reasons.

Raising kids isn't the hardest jobs out there, but you can't deny you get better results with not only the help of two adults. But more importantly if you have two sane adults that realize they want to do the best job they can raising their children, and that they are their first priority.

Seems like a good theory to me on how to keep a kid on the straight and narrow so they can avoid all sorts of problems in life then become succesfull. With the hopes they don't become a fucking retard at a BBQ firing a gun into a crowd killing two injuring nineteen others, including a head injury to an infant.

So yeah, throw the book at these dipshits.