[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Second - think about what you're saying about a preference for bus routes over LRT. In order to move the same amount of people, entire fleets of busses have to be driving in mixed traffic at the same time. And as you mentioned, the stops are closer so they're moving over to the right lane and stopping all the time. Is that really what you want as a motorist? And because you have to put more busses on the road to move people, the overall maintenace cost per passenger moved is higher. Is that really what you want as a taxpayer? You're just saying anything you can to keep the debate going.

They're not moving over to the right lane, they're almost always in the right lane and that same lane can be used for cars too.

As a motorist, I prefer a bus or subway. The bus still allows you to use all your lanes on the road, LRT's remove a lane in either direction and are stuck dead in their tracks if a collision or maintenance issue arises. Especially with our winters and the snow, I can problems with switching just like we have on the already existing Scarborough LT line. If a collision happens, a bus drives around it. If maintenance occurs, they bring in another bus.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

But I'm guessing people will quickly figure out that it makes sense to hop in the LRT (which has right of way over cars) and get to work in 30 minutes instead of 2 hours by car. I know I would.

THAT'S HOW LRT GETS PEOPLE OUT OF CARS - by shortening their commute.

These routes already have bus service.

Is shortening their commute by a few minutes either way going to make them ditch their car? I don't think so.

I'll take the comfort of my car, my music and my "smells" even if it takes me an extra 9 minutes.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Well, you're making up for it now.

Nope. I'll vote for the party that will do best by the province in my opinion even if that means Liberal.

I doubt you'll be pulling back from your natural tendency to play the forum asshole though.

[BartSimpson]

$1:

Council votes 24-19 to put LRTs on Sheppard

WTF does a city need thirty-three council members for? That's not a council, it's a ***damn jobs program!

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

But I'm guessing people will quickly figure out that it makes sense to hop in the LRT (which has right of way over cars) and get to work in 30 minutes instead of 2 hours by car. I know I would.

THAT'S HOW LRT GETS PEOPLE OUT OF CARS - by shortening their commute.

These routes already have bus service.

Is shortening their commute by a few minutes either way going to make them ditch their car? I don't think so.

I'll take the comfort of my car, my music and my "smells" even if it takes me an extra 9 minutes.

But with worsening traffic issues, it won't take an extra nine minutes - it'll take an extra 15 minutes, then 30 then 45, and so on.

[Caelon]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

As a motorist, I prefer a bus or subway. The bus still allows you to use all your lanes on the road, LRT's remove a lane in either direction and are stuck dead in their tracks if a collision or maintenance issue arises. Especially with our winters and the snow, I can problems with switching just like we have on the already existing Scarborough LT line. If a collision happens, a bus drives around it. If maintenance occurs, they bring in another bus.

Is the real issue that you are reacting to media hype about LRT's and that you have no personal experience with the mode of travel? It is basically a subway train running above ground so if you like the subway what is wrong with an LRT?

In Calgary the only roads they interfere with is in the downtown core and that street is closed to vehicle traffic anyways. So no loss there. The rest of the route is on land separated from the road way or in the median area of a couple of major roads. Again no interference with traffic.

[OnTheIce]

Caelon Caelon:

Is the real issue that you are reacting to media hype about LRT's and that you have no personal experience with the mode of travel? It is basically a subway train running above ground so if you like the subway what is wrong with an LRT?

In Calgary the only roads they interfere with is in the downtown core and that street is closed to vehicle traffic anyways. So no loss there. The rest of the route is on land separated from the road way or in the median area of a couple of major roads. Again no interference with traffic.

I know it's hard for you guys to picture who don't live or travel in the area.

In the case of Eglinton Ave, we have 6 lanes that are very busy all day. Worse during rush hour. Adding a LRT is going to remove 2 of those lanes leaving 4 lanes for the same amount of cars.

So we're taking the SAME riders that ride the bus and putting them onto a LRT while maintaining the same volume of traffic with 1/3 less lanes.

The LRT has to be considerably faster than the bus to draw in ridership. I think that due to the density, intersections and traffic lights it's going to be difficult to get the trains moving at a "subway like" pace.

We're also ignoring the economic impact of an above ground project. I know people refer back to the St.Clair right-of-way project where people lost their businesses. I guess it makes it OK now that other people have opened shop.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Caelon Caelon:

Is the real issue that you are reacting to media hype about LRT's and that you have no personal experience with the mode of travel? It is basically a subway train running above ground so if you like the subway what is wrong with an LRT?

In Calgary the only roads they interfere with is in the downtown core and that street is closed to vehicle traffic anyways. So no loss there. The rest of the route is on land separated from the road way or in the median area of a couple of major roads. Again no interference with traffic.

I know it's hard for you guys to picture who don't live or travel in the area.

In the case of Eglinton Ave, we have 6 lanes that are very busy all day. Worse during rush hour. Adding a LRT is going to remove 2 of those lanes leaving 4 lanes for the same amount of cars.

So we're taking the SAME riders that ride the bus and putting them onto a LRT while maintaining the same volume of traffic with 1/3 less lanes.

The LRT has to be considerably faster than the bus to draw in ridership. I think that due to the density, intersections and traffic lights it's going to be difficult to get the trains moving at a "subway like" pace.

We're also ignoring the economic impact of an above ground project. I know people refer back to the St.Clair right-of-way project where people lost their businesses. I guess it makes it OK now that other people have opened shop.

Actually, LRTs are way faster than buses - they don't stop for traffic or red lights like buses do. I can get from the suburbs in Edmonton to downtown in 15-20 minutes, depending on which station you get on and off at. When the LRT passes an at-grade intersection (surface), traffic stops for the LRT, which makes it much faster than driving.

And because low floor LRT infrastructure (stations) can be built for next to nothing - it's basically just a large bus stop - you can build more of them than you can subway stations, so people can get on and off in more places.

LRT will actually make storefronts (and real estate prices) along the route better because they are almost as accessible as they are by car. Sure you might have to walk a block or two, but that happens too when you use a car, because you don't always find a parking spot in front of every store you shop at.

I know LRT sounds ludicrous to you, but the reason most of us agree with this decision is because we have seen how LRT works in our own cities and know it will work in Toronto too.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

THAT'S HOW LRT GETS PEOPLE OUT OF CARS - by shortening their commute.

That's not the only way in Vancouver. It's also finding and paying for parking downtown. If you're not going along a Skytrain line to your destination, cars are still way faster, and if you're not going downtown you can probably still find parking if you're not staying that long. But if you need to by in the Commercial Drive area all day, say, good luck finding parking that doesn't set you back a pretty penny. Not sure what people who work there do, probably not a lot of people from the burbs work there.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Actually, LRTs are way faster than buses - they don't stop for traffic or red lights like buses do. I can get from the suburbs in Edmonton to downtown in 15-20 minutes, depending on which station you get on and off at. When the LRT passes an at-grade intersection (surface), traffic stops for the LRT, which makes it much faster than driving.

And because low floor LRT infrastructure (stations) can be built for next to nothing - it's basically just a large bus stop - you can build more of them than you can subway stations, so people can get on and off in more places.

LRT will actually make storefronts (and real estate prices) along the route better because they are almost as accessible as they are by car. Sure you might have to walk a block or two, but that happens too when you use a car, because you don't always find a parking spot in front of every store you shop at.

I know LRT sounds ludicrous to you, but the reason most of us agree with this decision is because we have seen how LRT works in our own cities and know it will work in Toronto too.

If they can get the LRT's moving at a rate faster than car, I'm all for it.

As for your comment about walking a block or two...that's not the reality in this situation. There's ample parking along the way for retail with little walking involved.

The other major issue we have here is accessibility. With stops much further apart, it may put some people out of reach for the LRT.

It doesn't sound ludicrous to me, it just seems like doing something for the sake of doing something which may (or may not) be the right choice. Only time will tell.

[bootlegga]

Well, I have to admit I thought the idea was stupid too (low floor LRTs) because Edmonton already has regular LRT (high floor) and mixing the two seemed silly - but after going to a couple info sessions with the City of Edmonton I came around - it really looks like a win-win to me.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Well, I have to admit I thought the idea was stupid too (low floor LRTs) because Edmonton already has regular LRT (high floor) and mixing the two seemed silly - but after going to a couple info sessions with the City of Edmonton I came around - it really looks like a win-win to me.

In Edmonton, do the trains run along the curb lane?

[EyeBrock]

Boots, Edmonton is tiny and pretty new. Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and part of a conurbation bigger than most provinces by population. I'm not sure things that work easily in Edmonton are a go in the Big Smoke. Just saying.

[Caelon]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Boots, Edmonton is tiny and pretty new. Toronto is the biggest city in Canada and part of a conurbation bigger than most provinces by population. I'm not sure things that work easily in Edmonton are a go in the Big Smoke. Just saying.

I heard similar comments about why LCV's (long combination vehicles - think tractors pulling two or three trailers) wouldn't work in Ontario even though they had been used in western Canada since the 60's. In fact the safest vehicle on the road as measured by accident rate was an LCV configuration. No other vehicle type was as safe during a 4 year study. But the Ontario 'experts' claimed it would be terrible in Ontario. Just couldn't work, yada , yada, yada. 40 years later Ontario tries it, finds it is a success and claims to have invented it. At times there is an attitude of resistance to change by bureaucrats in the east that is mind boggling.

As for LRT's think outside the box. The train does not have to run down your busy streets. Utilize lesser roads, alleys, vacant land, etc a block or two away from the major road. Expropriate property that is in the way and build the d&^* thing. Procrastination will just make it more expensive later.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

As a motorist, I prefer a bus or subway. The bus still allows you to use all your lanes on the road, LRT's remove a lane in either direction and are stuck dead in their tracks if a collision or maintenance issue arises. Especially with our winters and the snow, I can problems with switching just like we have on the already existing Scarborough LT line. If a collision happens, a bus drives around it. If maintenance occurs, they bring in another bus.

You and I both know you can't drive much more than a block in most parts of Toronto without having to change lanes. Sooner or later, the right lane is either a turning lane or somebody is stopped/parked in it. The number of city busses operating on simultaneously on a route is a known cause traffic delays. Since the LRT is on a dedicated line and not mixed with traffic, a breakdown is of no concern to motorists.