[BeaverFever]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Does respect for the dead only apply if the dead are interred in a clearly defined cemetery?

Yes.

So, when the Egyptian Pyramids were raided and their riches and bodies put on display for all to see, that was respect?

Or when the Brits burned mummies as fuel in their steamships? (True fact).

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

So the question remains, where are the thousands of items recovered?

Holy fuck, they go where artifacts go: different museums, private collections, etc. What does it matter? Jesus!

What does it matter?

It matters as much as these people allowing development on most of this "sacred" land up until a big money developer steps in.

It matters how much they value these artefacts and if they actually know where they went. These are people's bodies and belongings.

Let's face the truth here, Beaver. This has nothing to do with sacred land, this comes down to dollars and cents. If the land was that sacred, acres of it wouldn't already have been developed, so we know the area isn't as important as they'd like is to believe.

So, how much? How much do these Natives want to turn away from an empty site that's already been excavated and mostly sold off?

What? That's irrelevant and I think you're just grasping at straws. Consider:

1) WE KNOW that archaeologists have been conducting excavations and finding remains and artifacts on the site for almost 125 years. It's not in dispute that the place once was one a settlement

2) It wasn't the Indians doing the Excavations and removing the artifacts, it was British and Canadian universities and museums. Why are placing the burden on the Natives to tell you where somebody else took their treasures? And what relevance does any of that have? We don't know where many of the plundered wealth of the Egyptian Pharaohs went, and if someone ever did find out, the Egyptians would probably not be the first to know. Does that mean we can bulldoze the pyramids and build condos there?


But since you asked, a little googling goes a long way, OTI. From the Marpole Midden Historical society:

$1:

The Vancouver Art,Historical and Scientific Association was particularly interested in the Fraser Midden in the early 1900’s, and many artifacts from here are now on display at the Vancouver Centennial Museum.

3) Those same archeologists who have excavated there are saying there are more artifacts to be discovered.

4) We don't know that the FN have ever been "allowing" any development. Development and European settlement of that area has been going in that area for decades (back to the 1800's actually) which is long before FN were given any say in anything that happened to them or their lands. However we do know from the 2007 article that I linked that their inclusion and participation in planning was NEWat that time.

5) We don't know that this is the first "big developer" to get involved. In fact, given that it's vancouver and there are other tall buildings in teh area, I'd say "big developers" have probably been involved there for a long time.


At this point, we can only conclude that the discussion and development plans between the FN, the govt and the developers either broke down, or the protesters are a splinter faction.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

What? That's irrelevant and I think you're just grasping at straws. Consider:

1) WE KNOW that archaeologists have been conducting excavations and finding remains and artifacts on the site for almost 125 years. It's not in dispute that the place once was one a settlement

Lots of places were "once" something. We going to keep the land empty in hopes we may find a few fingernails in the next 100 years?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2) It wasn't the Indians doing the Excavations and removing the artifacts, it was British and Canadian universities and museums. Why are placing the burden on the Natives to tell you where somebody else took their treasures?

They are the one's protesting this sacred land, not the people who excavated it. If this land is so important, they'd better know the history.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

5) We don't know that this is the first "big developer" to get involved. In fact, given that it's vancouver and there are other tall buildings in teh area, I'd say "big developers" have probably been involved there for a long time.

So the question remains, why now? Did they suddenly realise that this land is worth protecting?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

At this point, we can only conclude that the discussion and development plans between the FN, the govt and the developers either broke down, or the protesters are a splinter faction.

What discussion is there to have?

If it's sacred ground, there should be no room for discussion or debate. The land can't be developed.

In the end, a settlement will be reached and this band will be paid handsomely.

[Guy_Fawkes]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Does respect for the dead only apply if the dead are interred in a clearly defined cemetery?

Yes.

So, when the Egyptian Pyramids were raided and their riches and bodies put on display for all to see, that was respect?

Are they dozing down pyramids to put up condos?

Was Stonehenge knocked down to make a strip mall?

[Guy_Fawkes]

How about this, should all cultures no matter how small be preserved?

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Lots of places were "once" something. We going to keep the land empty in hopes we may find a few fingernails in the next 100 years?
Well again, if you read the 2007 article, the archaeologists say there is much more there...because the settlment was so old, much of it is still unearthed and so far down, that the developlent will just pave over it without digging deep enough. Nobody is saying they've found everything there is to find...but they are saying they've already found a treasure trove there over the years.

$1:

They are the one's protesting this sacred land, not the people who excavated it. If this land is so important, they'd better know the history.

Well I don't know what the archaeologists' position on the current situation is, I think the story is too new for there to be reports of their position. But typcially archaeologists don't favour development in historical areas.

$1:

So the question remains, why now? Did they suddenly realise that this land is worth protecting?

There's nothing to suggest their opposition is new. The current story is because the developer was about to break ground when the protesters turned up and shut it down.
What discussion is there to have?

$1:

If it's sacred ground, there should be no room for discussion or debate. The land can't be developed.

Apparently, the developer and at least some in municipal/provincial gov't feel it can be developed.

$1:

In the end, a settlement will be reached and this band will be paid handsomely.

Well, but I don't think that's what the band wants. I think they want the land left intact.

Intersting 2006-2007 academic paper from the UBC Department of BC Studies:

"Who Were These Mysterious People?": the Marpole Midden, and the Dispossession of Aboriginal Lands in British Columbia
http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/bcstudies/article/view/671/716

The last few pages in particular address the current era.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Are they dozing down pyramids to put up condos?

See much urban sprawl around them?

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Was Stonehenge knocked down to make a strip mall?

Stonehenge is a burial site?

[Dragon-Dancer]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

How about this, should all cultures no matter how small be preserved?

Simple answer to that is, in as many respects as humanly possible Yes!
There is so much of our history that we lose simply because we spoil the sites and build over them before we allow time to study them. Even small things are important when seeking to know who we are and where we come from.

[Gunnair]

I have to admit to being curious. If they were given control of the land, would they leave it natural? My cynical side says no.

[OnTheIce]

Gunnair Gunnair:

I have to admit to being curious. If they were given control of the land, would they leave it natural? My cynical side says no.

They'd throw up a trailer and sell illegal smokes out of it.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I have to admit to being curious. If they were given control of the land, would they leave it natural? My cynical side says no.

They'd throw up a trailer and sell illegal smokes out of it.

You really are an asshole some days ya know.

[Gunnair]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I have to admit to being curious. If they were given control of the land, would they leave it natural? My cynical side says no.

They'd throw up a trailer and sell illegal smokes out of it.

Well I doubt that, but I'd wager they would develop it with an eye to preserving the site (like the current developer) though in a more tastefully sacred way (whatever that would mean)

That of course is a nice way to say cash grab.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

How about this, should all cultures no matter how small be preserved?

Simple answer to that is, in as many respects as humanly possible Yes!
There is so much of our history that we lose simply because we spoil the sites and build over them before we allow time to study them. Even small things are important when seeking to know who we are and where we come from.

If this was some monumental site I would be all for preserving it, from what I have seen there is nothing left to preserve. If they find something by all means preserve it and study it, then continue to build.

[ShepherdsDog]

cut to two Asian parents finding their little girl kneeling in front of a plasma screen and touching it, while a late night infomercial drones on. She slowly turns her head towards her parents and whispers,'They're here, eh!'

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Gunnair Gunnair:

I have to admit to being curious. If they were given control of the land, would they leave it natural? My cynical side says no.

They'd throw up a trailer and sell illegal smokes out of it.

You really are an asshole some days ya know.

Yep...I'm sorry, but I have zero respect for Native people in this Country, through their actions and my decade or so dealing with these people.

Now they're reaching out to Iran