[Jabberwalker]

... or "Satan"

[andyt]

JaredMilne JaredMilne:

I distinctly remember a coworker of mine at a previous job, a Muslim immigrant from Pakistan. He always spoke to his coworkers in English, enrolled his kids in French immersion, and joined us for office potlucks during Ramadan while jokingly asking us not to tell his wife. He was just another Canadian, working hard to make a living while getting along with his fellow citizens.

Guys like him are the Muslims we need to support, and that we need more of in Canada, even as we oppose the psychopaths that strive to murder innocents and shoot down our protectors.

Well said. And most Muslims are like this, even if they don't break fast for Ramadan.

But I would add, that we should also confront these Muslims to be way more confrontational with the people spouting extremism within their midsts. I don't know if it's fear, or wanting to maintain Muslim solidarity, or some smidgen of support for violent jihad, but the Muslim community needs to do more than release communiques against terrorism. They need to challenge the fundamentalists among their midsts.

That would include those who want to have Canada under Sharia law. Ie they are not advocating violence, but want to bring about Shariah in Canada. We are are pluralistic country, this should not be allowed. However, for us to challenge Muslims to be against Sharia, we also have to stand up against the Christians who want Christianity to be the dominant religion, want special exemptions for christianity. We may not have a Christian Heritage party anymore, but that doesn't mean all the people that supported it just changed their minds. We need true secularism in this country, so no group can attempt to bring back religion to the state. No matter what religion.

[BeaverFever]

On the gun control topic: didn't see anyone post it here yet, but does anyone doubt that looser gun laws would have meant higher casualties? The guy had one of those old breech-loaded (i.e. no magazine), lever-action cowboy rifles that holds at most 8 shots (usually 7). Since he fired 3 at the memorial, he stormed parliament with at most 5 bullets and it would have taken him about 1 minute to reload.

$1:

Low-tech weapon probably limited Zehaf-Bibeau’s damage

Tu Thanh Ha

The Globe and Mail

Published Friday, Oct. 24 2014, 7:38 PM EDT

Last updated Friday, Oct. 24 2014, 10:20 PM EDT


When Michael Zehaf-Bibeau ran into the halls of Parliament’s Centre Block and got into a shootout with guards, officers and the House of Commons sergeant-at-arms, the 32-year-old was wielding an outmoded hunting rifle designed in 1894.

Because of his lengthy criminal record, Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau was barred from owning firearms. The gun he secured for his attack Wednesday is a common hunting rifle with modest power and magazine capacity that required him to pull a lever to load before each shot – and presumably limited his capacity to wreak havoc in the halls of Parliament.

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How Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau obtained the Winchester is now the primary focus of the police investigation, RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson told reporters Thursday.

“The source of that gun is of tremendous interest to us. He was prohibited criminally from possessing firearms and we will determine where that gun came from,” Mr. Paulson said.

He said the gun was a 30-30 Winchester lever-action rifle, a model similar to the iconic gun seen in many Western movies. It is not known whether Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau obtained it on the black market, through an accomplice or via theft. Gun owners are supposed to notify the authorities if their firearms are stolen.

“Although it can be used as a weapon, it’s hardly the firearm of choice,” said Keith Cunningham, a retired army officer who is now a certified shooting coach. “I don’t know why he eventually chose this rifle … you can get any firearm you want on the black market. I would have thought his weapon of choice would have been the AK” – meaning the AK-47 assault rifle – “so I doubt he’s had any kind of training or experience with a firearm.”

The Winchester is commonly used for deer hunting, but many hunters today prefer more powerful firearms that can accommodate shooting scopes, said Jeannot Ruel, editorial adviser for the hunting and fishing magazine Sentier Chasse et Pêche. “It’s ancient. It’s not the most performing weapon you could find.”

A hunter using this rifle would have to get closer to the game, he said, as the 30-30 cartridge is of modest power.

A light, relatively compact weapon, the Winchester can hold up to eight rounds – seven in the magazine and another in the chamber. It has to be loaded one cartridge at a time, from a port on the right side of the chamber.

The RCMP said Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau approached his first targets, two members of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders regiment, as they faced away. The soldiers’ rifles wouldn’t have been loaded because they were on ceremonial guard duty at the National War Memorial.

Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau fired two shots at Corporal Nathan Cirillo, fatally wounding the 24-year-old reservist. He fired another shot at the second guard – he missed – before running away.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e21305403/

[Xort]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

On the gun control topic: didn't see anyone post it here yet, but does anyone doubt that looser gun laws would have meant higher casualties? The guy had one of those old breech-loaded (i.e. no magazine), lever-action cowboy rifles that holds at most 8 shots (usually 7). Since he fired 3 at the memorial, he stormed parliament with at most 5 bullets and it would have taken him about 1 minute to reload.

That's bullshit. You can watch videos of people loading that exact model of rifle not being in any hurry at all and having it full in 15s. The rifle in question is very much NOT a breech-loader, as the breech doesn't need to be opened to load it. It can be loaded with the breech closed ready to fire.

As I said before it's dead easy to reload this rifle on the move. You just push cartridges in a side port. No need to function anything on the rifle to let a on the fly reload happen.

Unlike a magazine fed rifle you can top up rounds halfway through shooting. No pulling a mag out half loaded because you're worried about running low. Just palm a few rounds then load by pushing them in.

Our current gun laws would allow anyone to legally acquire a semi auto magazine fed rifle if they met the standard for any firearms ownership. Or a bolt action rifle with no size limit on the magazine (internal or external) That he selected the firearm that he did is not an issue of our laws.

In the end our firearm laws didn't really do anything to make the situation better or worse. The most important factor in how deadly someone is, will almost always be how well they plan and practice.

Looking over the history of terrorism, those that have the most impact are the ones that planned the most and planned the best.

$1:

“Although it can be used as a weapon, it’s hardly the firearm of choice,” said Keith Cunningham, a retired army officer who is now a certified shooting coach. “I don’t know why he eventually chose this rifle … you can get any firearm you want on the black market. I would have thought his weapon of choice would have been the AK” – meaning the AK-47 assault rifle – “so I doubt he’s had any kind of training or experience with a firearm.”

To legally acquire an AK-47 in the USA the cost would be upwards of $15,000. An illegal blackmarket AK-47 would cost an unknown amount, but it's likely not going for $50 US like in some African nations given what the gray market would pay for an AK-47.

[Jabberwalker]

it's dead easy to reload this rifle on the move. You just push cartridges in a side port.

John Wayne use to do it at a full gallop.

[Thanos]

For anyone who isn't on drugs, you can acquire a semi-automatic AK47 or AK47 clone in the US from a licensed firearms dealer for around $400 average. Prices rise somewhat for a genuine Russian model, then drop considerably for the Czech versions from the 1980's and '90's, and down to as low as $100 for a current Chinese-made clone.

$15K for a fucking AK47? Give your goddamn head a shake.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

On the gun control topic: didn't see anyone post it here yet, but does anyone doubt that looser gun laws would have meant higher casualties? The guy had one of those old breech-loaded (i.e. no magazine), lever-action cowboy rifles that holds at most 8 shots (usually 7). Since he fired 3 at the memorial, he stormed parliament with at most 5 bullets and it would have taken him about 1 minute to reload.

It's a side loader which means you can load up on the fly even while still having rounds loaded. They also hold anywhere from 9-13 rounds depending on the barrel length and size of the round being used.
As for the Winchester 94 itself, it was manufactured in typical revolver calibers such as .38 Special/.357 Magnum, .44 Special/.44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .38-40 Winchester, and .44-40 Winchester.
This is a weapon meant to do maximum damage at short to medium range. If you're looking to hit as many targets as possible an AK might do the job, but if you're intent is to kill people outright, the Win 94 a very suitable rifle for such a task. It's damn accurate and it's capable of putting big holes in people.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

That's bullshit. You can watch videos of people loading that exact model of rifle not being in any hurry at all and having it full in 15s.

Yeah, but are they doing under fire? It's one thing when a practiced competitive or hobby shooter is on a range with the bullets all laid out nicely for him and another thing when a first-time shooter like this schmuck has incoming rounds being fired at him and he has to fish loose rounds out of his pocket and fumble with them .

$1:

Our current gun laws would allow anyone to legally acquire a semi auto magazine fed rifle if they met the standard for any firearms ownership.

He didn't meet the standard, hence he couldn't get his hands on one. Score one for our current gun laws.

$1:

That he selected the firearm that he did is not an issue of our laws.

You don't think he would have chosen a more powerful weapon if he could have gotten his hands on one?

$1:

To legally acquire an AK-47 in the USA, the cost would be upwards of $15,000

Luckily, this isn't the USA, so even if he had the $15k, he would not have the same opportunity to get his hands on one

[Xort]

Thanos Thanos:

For anyone who isn't on drugs, you can acquire a semi-automatic AK47 or AK47 clone in the US from a licensed firearms dealer for around $400 average. Prices rise somewhat for a genuine Russian model, then drop considerably for the Czech versions from the 1980's and '90's, and down to as low as $100 for a current Chinese-made clone.

$15K for a fucking AK47? Give your goddamn head a shake.

A semi-auto AK-47 isn't an AK-47.

The full auto AK-47s cost as much as they due thanks to legislation that made importing new ones or building new ones for sale illegal.

Please learn something about firearms.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Yeah, but are they doing under fire? It's one thing when a practiced competitive or hobby shooter is on a range with the bullets all laid out nicely for him and another thing when a first-time shooter like this schmuck has incoming rounds being fired at him and he has to fish loose rounds out of his pocket and fumble with them.

Yeah while under fire, in cover. It's called practice.

$1:

He didn't meet the standard, hence he couldn't get his hands on one. Score one for our current gun laws.

He had one rifle and no practical law would have stopped him. Can't stop the black market.

$1:

You don't think he would have chosen a more powerful weapon if he could have gotten his hands on one?

Nope. I think he selected the first one he could get his hands on.

$1:

Luckily, this isn't the USA, so even if he had the $15k, he would not have the same opportunity to get his hands on one

The money cost is only one limit. To transfer a Class III firearm you need to go through the bATF and local law enforcement.

[Thanos]

If I want to learn more about firearms I certainly won't bother talking to you. Not unless I want to learn more about these AK47 from fantasy land that would have to be made out of platinum in order to cost $15000 per rifle. At that price why even bother with rifles because you could buy a pretty decent main battle tank for the cost of a hundred rifles. Yes, the most numerous, widely manufactured, and widely distributed firearm in the history of the human race, with millions of fully automatic models in the hands of international gun dealers as well as millions more in the armouries of dozens and dozens of state governments costs $15-large per unit. Like I said, give your head a fucking shake.

[Xort]

Thanos Thanos:

If I want to learn more about firearms I certainly won't bother talking to you.

Wallow in your own ignorance then.

$1:

Not unless I want to learn more about these AK47 from fantasy land that would have to be made out of platinum in order to cost $15000 per rifle. At that price why even bother with rifles because you could buy a pretty decent main battle tank for the cost of a hundred rifles. Yes, the most numerous, widely manufactured, and widely distributed firearm in the history of the human race, with millions of fully automatic models in the hands of international gun dealers as well as millions more in the armouries of dozens and dozens of state governments costs $15-large per unit. Like I said, give your head a fucking shake.

And you can't legally import them into the USA, or make any new ones. As such the total supply of for sale full auto firearms in the US is limited. The number of real AK-47s in the USA is estimated to be a few thousand tops.

Lets see what the largest gun sales website has on sale in terms of full auto Class IIIs;

http://www.gunbroker.com/Machine-Guns/BI.aspx

MG-34 C&R Un-ISSUED Mfg "dfb" 1942 Transferable $10,000.00
Browning 1919 A6 30-06 Full Auto & Transferable $13,995.00
Full-Auto IMI UZI 9mm, W/ .45 and .22 Conversions $15,500.00
PRE 86 TRANSFERABLE BUSHMASTER MACHINE GUN $11,500.00
mg-34 MG34 machine gun pre sample dealer only $12,000.00
TRANSFERABLE FULL AUTO COLT MACHINE GUN US M-16
PROPERTY MARKED VIETNAM ERA 5.56 223 M16A1 M16 AR $29,995.00
HK 91 Transferable Machine Gun HK91 .308 H&K $21,995.00
HK 33 .223 Pre May Demo Machinegun NFA item 223 $7,000.00
M134 Minigun post 86 dealer sample $25,000.00
Colt M16A1 Factory Carbine RARE!
NFA Transferable Machine Gun NO RESERVE! $16,025.00
Ac556/ac 556 ruger machine gun,extras,no reserve! $10,774.00


And the list goes on and on and on.

You can buy a knock off semi auto AK for a few hundred dollars. But to but a full auto legally, you need about $15,000. It doesn't matter how many were made, or how cheap they are in Africa, they are illegal in the US for import or for manufacture for sale.

Their is no way this guy was getting a real AK-47, or a AKM or much better newer AK-74M or AK-104.

The black and gray market for full auto follows near but lower than the legal market price. Black market firearms for sale fit the demand market which is for small pistols, the most commonly used firearms in crimes.

[MeganC]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

it's dead easy to reload this rifle on the move. You just push cartridges in a side port.

John Wayne use to do it at a full gallop.

With one eye covered.

[N_Fiddledog]

MeganC MeganC:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

it's dead easy to reload this rifle on the move. You just push cartridges in a side port.

John Wayne use to do it at a full gallop.

With one eye covered.

"Fill your hands, you son of a bitch!"

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

On the gun control topic: didn't see anyone post it here yet, but does anyone doubt that looser gun laws would have meant higher casualties?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

He didn't meet the standard, hence he couldn't get his hands on one. Score one for our current gun laws.

So, you answered your own question.

And it's not that he 'didn't meet the standard'; it's 'he was legally prohibited from owning firearms'.

[bootlegga]

JaredMilne JaredMilne:

Here's a response from some of the country's major Muslim groups:

$1:

Representatives of major Canadian Muslim groups gathered in Ottawa today to reiterate their denunciation of terrorism in the name of Islam at a news conference in Ottawa, even as fear of harassment and violence grows in the Muslim-Canadian community.

“Our message to anyone who believes in violent extremist ideologies is that you have nothing to do with Islam,” said Ihsaan Gardee, the executive director of the National Council of Canadian Muslims and one of several speakers at Thursday’s event. “You have nothing to do with the noble principles of our faith, which categorically condemn the taking of innocent life.”

Muslim associations across Canada were quick to issue statements of solidarity with their fellow citizens as events unfolded in Ottawa on Wednesday and the killer of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo was identified as Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, a recent convert to Islam.

Speakers at the news conference expressed grief and extended condolences to the families affected by the attack, but they also hinted at the strains the event will likely put on Muslim-Canadian communities. A representative for the Canadian Council of Muslim Women spoke of living “under a microscope” of suspicion since Sept. 11, 2001.

Canadians, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, have to work “to heal the toxic wounds of recent history,” Farhat Rehman said.

Muslim community leaders, who placed a wreath at the National War Memorial where the fatal shooting took place, spoke with numerous media outlets as well as other Ottawans about what had taken place in the city, with Imam Sikander Hashmi of the Kanata Muslim Association telling Postmedia News that it was “a very emotional day.”

“Obviously there’s a lot of sadness and perhaps some anger as well,” Hashmi said in a phone interview. “This is my country. I haven’t lived anywhere else and I call this home, so for someone to spread bloodshed and violence in my homeland, I don’t take that very kindly. I take great offence to that.”

“We’re feeling exactly the way a lot our fellow Canadians are feeling,” he added.

Hashmi, who also works with the Canadian Council of Imams, said mosques and Muslim associations across Canada started responding to the tragedy even before the identity of the shooter was revealed, although learning that he was a Muslim was troubling.

Law enforcement is already preparing for any ugliness that might arise in the days and weeks to come. Amid the emergency response in the capital on Wednesday, Ottawa Police sent a letter to all the Muslim community centres in the region assuring them of their security.

“The Ottawa Police Service has a long standing collaboration with our various faith and communities leaders that have allowed us to build strong and positive relationships,” Police Chief Charles Bordeleau wrote. “With this in mind, I want to take this opportunity to reiterate my commitment to ensure the safety of all of our communities.”

Hashmi said the letter was a positive sign of trust and cooperation, although some community members have already experienced harassment since the shooting.

“We did hear reports of children being bullied at school, having a tough time yesterday because of the events. We had reports of a woman wearing a hijab being verbally assaulted. But you know what? We’re all in this together [despite] the anger that people feel,” Hashmi said.

“I also know that an overwhelming majority of Canadians believe and understand that taking out anger and frustrations against innocent people in response to the loss of innocent life is wrong, and that two wrongs don’t make a right.”

I distinctly remember a coworker of mine at a previous job, a Muslim immigrant from Pakistan. He always spoke to his coworkers in English, enrolled his kids in French immersion, and joined us for office potlucks during Ramadan while jokingly asking us not to tell his wife. He was just another Canadian, working hard to make a living while getting along with his fellow citizens.

Guys like him are the Muslims we need to support, and that we need more of in Canada, even as we oppose the psychopaths that strive to murder innocents and shoot down our protectors.

I'll admit I don't know very many Muslims, but the ones I do are much like your co-worker. However, I'll also admit that when I see Muslims in niqabs, burkas or even hijabs, I feel hesitant and somewhat leery of them.

I think the biggest problem is that the community is fairly tight knit and typically not very open, so it's hard for many Canadians to feel as accepting of them as other groups who immigrate to this country.