[rickc]

Delwin Delwin:

rickc rickc:

I was hoping you would show up, I thought the thread had died out. I actually like your work. I do not agree with you on this issue, but you take the time to do some research and get your facts straight. I like that! Yes you are factually correct that Mr. Bundy has been illegally ranching on that land for years. I will concede that point to you. The whole point of this story is that sometimes the law is wrong. Just because you have the color of law on your side, does not always make you right. Rosa Parks was breaking the law when she refused to give up her seat to a white man. The gays were breaking the law when they were dancing together at the stonewall Inn. American women trying to vote in the early 1900s were breaking the law. Am I putting Mr. Bundy on the same pedestal as these people? No I am not. I am trying to make the point that sometimes the law is wrong. Sometimes the law needs to be changed. The BLM has put countess ranchesr, loggers, farmers, etc. out of business with the stroke of a pen. These people are not elected officials. Who the hell do they think they are putting these people out of business on a whim? The BLM tried to reduce Mr. Bundys heard from thousands down to 150. Where was he going to go? The feds own almost all of Nevada. Why should he give up what his family has been doing for generations just because some pointy headed bureaucrat from some trashy shithole back east tells him too? Oh thats right, its the law. He should be a good boy. Shuffle along now, and do not make a scene.
We have over 11 million illegals living in the States. I do not see this kind of concentrated firepower coming their way. If the feds showed up with this kind of firepower and started rounding up the illegals,where would you stand on that? Would you still be so firm in your law and order stance? Would it be so black and white to you then?

I just love how some Canadian lefties (speaking in general here, not calling you out) think that a strong U.S. government hand is a good thing when its taking on U.S. right wing groups, and depriving us of our rights. They love it when they are harassing us. The government consists of swell, level headed people only pursuing justice. Let that strong federal hand start taking on some Canadian interests like softwood, Marc Emery, the border, etc. Than its a whole different ball of wax. Than the very same people are bemoaning the outrageous arrogance of the U.S. federal government.

OK, so you are complaining that that the laws in this case are somehow unjust, you have yet to explain which laws or why. So before we start quoting Jefferson's right to revolution, maybe we should look at the laws which govern the case themselves.

1.Constitution of Arizona - Written in 1864, before Bundy moved their.

2.The Taylor grazing act of 1934 - Written by Edward Taylor, Colorado Rancher

3.The Grazing Fee Schedule - Signed into law in 1986 by Ronald Regan, Fellow Rancher

Are you arguing the grazing fees are too high ? Because the program actually loses about 140 Million a year and the formula was written by ranchers (Ronald Regean) for ranchers.

It has actually lowered and now stands at the lowest legal level.$1.35 per cattle head per month, or $16.20 for the year. In 3 years it equates to $48.60.
http://cals.arizona.edu/media/archives/10.11.html

This is all the money that is required to feed your cattle for 3 years and bring it's value from zero to ~$2500. Any business owner would consider this a fixed cost, and pay the fucking thing, as they all do. There is no sob story here. The 900 or so cattle this guy owns is worth millions of dollars. He is a multimillionaire. It's not the story of the poor factory worker who lost his job and is being evicted by the cruel slumlord. Far from it. He chooses to not contribute.

And 53 people who went out of business in a state of 16,000 ranchers is a testament to just what a lucrative business model this is. Have you ever even heard of a business with a 99% success ratio ?

First off, great work in this thread! This site (hell every site) greatly benefits by having people who do their homework like yourself. Second off, if you are not an attorney, you missed your calling in life. I like your insistence on the use of the word "alleged" in one of your other posts to me. Kudos! I agree, I should have used that word. Before I move on to what I really want to discuss, I have a question about your numbers regarding the amount of ranchers involved. In one of my posts I stated that 52 ranchers were put out of business by the BLM. What I meant to say is that 52 people holding grazing permits were put out of business by the BLM. Thus 52 RANCHES were put out of business by the BLM. Big difference between 52 ranches that could employ hundreds of employees each, and 52 individual ranchers. You state that Nevada has 16,000 ranchers. Are we talking ranch owners or total employees working in ranching here? Are we talking cattle, sheep, bunnies? We might have 16,000 visitors to our bunny ranches (brothels), but 16,000 different ranches seems kind of high to me. The Nevada Cattlemens Association only has 567 dues paying members,(Who by the way sympathize with Mr. Bundy). Could you provide some links to explain your numbers of ranchers involved. I would greatly appreciate it.

[Delwin]

TYVM for the compliment.

This is where I had read it originally:

Ranching has always been an important part of our nation’s heritage and continues throughout the West on public lands that belong to all Americans. This is a matter of fairness and equity, and we remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year. After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially."

This was from the current director.

http://www.mynews3.com/mostpopular/stor ... InDgg.cspx
This is where it can be found in the BLM site:

15,665 grazing allotments – that is, 73 percent of all BLM allotments – had been evaluated for land health at the end of Fiscal Year 2011, and 79 percent of those evaluated were meeting or making significant progress toward meeting all land health standards under current management.
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

I was incorrect in stating that this was the number for Nevada, this is in fact the total number nationally. I suppose the point isn't lost however, since you made no indicationn of where the ranchers are from. And, not to put to fine a point on it but we don't have very much information with regards to the credibility of their stories.

The actual number of grazing allotments for Nevada is here:

There are about 45 million acres of public rangelands in Nevada. These rangelands are divided into 745 grazing allotments. There are 550 operators, or permittees, with a total of 635 permits to graze livestock.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/prog/grazing.print.html

My point is, 53 people out of business on it's own when there are 16,000 doesn't paint a full picture of anything.

[N_Fiddledog]

$1:

The Desert Tortoise Conservation Center — a 23-year-old federal refuge in Las Vegas for the threatened species — has collected only $290,000 from its primary funding source of local developer fees over the last 11 months, the AP reports. The center can’t count on the Bureau of Land Management, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service or Nevada Department of Wildlife to make up the shortfall on the center’s $1 million annual operating budget because of federal and state budget constraints.

The result? Center administrators are planning to close the 220-acre facility in 2014 and euthanize about half of the 1400 tortoises under their protection, the AP reports.

http://linkis.com/www.rawstory.com/rs/XROjg

OK, so what was the estimate for the BLM's adventure into cattle rustling again? I heard $3 million. It they actually cared about protecting the tortoise wouldn't that money have been better spent at the tortoise refuge?

[Delwin]

This is something we already discussed but again, if enforcing the law costs more than the illegal activity taking place, does that mean it shouldn't be enforced ? Given the facts, how would you handle it ? Would you allow for it to continue for eternity ?

Is it somehow the BLM's fault that Bundy has threatened a range war ? Or that they have been threatened, bombed, held at gunpoint with such frequency that they are forced to take these matters very seriously?

[andyt]

Delwin Delwin:

if enforcing the law costs more than the illegal activity taking place, does that mean it shouldn't be enforced

Yes. THX 1138

[N_Fiddledog]

Also you were asking why Neil Kornze being hired as head of the BLM shortly before the paramilitary attack on the Bundy ranch was ordered is relevant.

Neil Kornze was Senior advisor to Harry Reid before he landed the big money influence job heading BLM.

Harry Reid's fingerprints are all over what I'll now call Turtlegate.

There was also Harvey Whittemore.

$1:

Two years ago, a case was brought against Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s close friend and donor Harvey Whittemore. The charges related to illegal campaign donations to Senator Reid.

Whittemore is a businessman who has been described as a powerful businessman and lobbyist in Nevada. Apparently even powerful enough to make his money speak sweet-nothings to Senator Reid.

Of the business ventures of Harvey Whittemore included Coyote Springs, a planned living community on desert land. The proposed project would include 160,000 homes, twelve golf courses, and a number of hotel-casinos.

Regulations got in the way though. What was one major obstacle? Desert lands that included a sanctuary for the endangered desert tortoise.

The obstacles were eventually dodged. Senator Reid was a major reason this occurred, as he introduced legislation to allow Coyote Springs to be constructed. It also seemed to help that Whittemore’s personal attorney was Leif Reid, who contacted Senator Reid regarding the EPA resisting Coyote Springs construction.

Leif Reid, son of Senator Harry Reid.

Then there was the water rights issues raised by residents of multiple states, as well as environmentalists and local ranchers. While initially slowing the progress of Coyote Springs, agreements were reached. Of the employees at Whittemore’s law firm was Clark County Commission chairman and Southern Nevada Water Authority vice-chairman Rory Reid.

Rory Reid, son of Senator Harry Reid

This all would lead to the charges in 2012 of illegal campaign contributions to Senator Reid by Whittemore.

https://undercoverporcupine.bangordaily ... ranch-war/

Then there was the recently publicized one about Harry Reid and son pulling strings to get tortoise land for the Chinese to build a solar plant on.

Harry doesn't give a damn about saving the tortoise. What that article wasn't clear about concerning Harry's campaign fraud buddy's proposal with Coyote Springs was it's in Clark County - tortoise country, Bundy country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_Springs,_Nevada

So the politician who's shown a willingness to bend rules and kill turtles for the right money, has a proposal for Bundy's range if he can get Bundy off it. Coincidentally his head boy lands the big government job that will allow him to push Bundy off. A few days after Reid's boy lands that job a paramilitary group of hundreds carrying high powered arms land to push Bundy off the range. And we always thought BLM was just a bureaucracy.

Nevertheless if you don't see a connection there between all those characters, there's a Nigerian prince I'd like you to meet. He emails me every once in awhile.

[N_Fiddledog]

Delwin Delwin:

This is something we already discussed but again, if enforcing the law costs more than the illegal activity taking place, does that mean it shouldn't be enforced ? Given the facts, how would you handle it ? Would you allow for it to continue for eternity ?

It never had to become a legal matter.

If bureaucratic idiocy and corruption is responsible for creating the problem that's what needs to be fixed.

What would I do? I wouldn't have to do anything, because there would not be a problem. Back in the day when Bundy was paying me as representative of the BLM (and he was paying the BLM at one time) I would have cooperated with him, not tried to drive him off his land.

If you're really concerned about law enforcement on public land though, there are signs up along the Mexican/American border right now...



Americans are paying taxes so cartels and terrorists can run drugs, guns, and illegals across the border.

Fix that one then come to Nevada and pretend you care about the turtles.

[rickc]

Delwin Delwin:

TYVM for the compliment.

This is where I had read it originally:

Ranching has always been an important part of our nation’s heritage and continues throughout the West on public lands that belong to all Americans. This is a matter of fairness and equity, and we remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year. After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially."

This was from the current director.

http://www.mynews3.com/mostpopular/stor ... InDgg.cspx
This is where it can be found in the BLM site:

15,665 grazing allotments – that is, 73 percent of all BLM allotments – had been evaluated for land health at the end of Fiscal Year 2011, and 79 percent of those evaluated were meeting or making significant progress toward meeting all land health standards under current management.
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

I was incorrect in stating that this was the number for Nevada, this is in fact the total number nationally. I suppose the point isn't lost however, since you made no indicationn of where the ranchers are from. And, not to put to fine a point on it but we don't have very much information with regards to the credibility of their stories.

The actual number of grazing allotments for Nevada is here:

There are about 45 million acres of public rangelands in Nevada. These rangelands are divided into 745 grazing allotments. There are 550 operators, or permittees, with a total of 635 permits to graze livestock.

posting.php?mode=reply&f=59&t=108294

My point is, 53 people out of business on it's own when there are 16,000 doesn't paint a full picture of anything.

You need to pm me some of these websites you are using. You are getting info in minutes, that is taking me hours to come by. My point in bringing up the numbers, is that I felt you were downplaying the actual number of people involved in losing their jobs in Clark County due to the actions of the BLM. You see that number of 52 is not people, they are ranches. Huge ranches, that employed many people. 52 ranches out of 550, or 635 ranches, is a far cry from 52 ranches out of 16,000 ranches. Would you not agree? Clark County makes up over 72% of the population of the State of Nevada. Without doing a second of research, I am going out on a limb and stating that it would be fair to say that the cattle ranches of Clark County that were closed by the BLM would be among some of the biggest in Nevada. There may very well be 16,000 people working in ranching in the U.S. You might want to do some research into what that number used to be, before the BLM started throwing their weight around. Its not only Nevada that has a problem with the heavy handed tactics of the BLM. 16,000 people are ranchers in the U.S. I would like to know what the average size of their ranch is. How many cattle do they own? I was born and raised back east. I can state for a fact that many of the cattle ranches back east would fit into the casino that I currently work in. Its not fair to compare someone who has 10 cattle on a small plot back east,to the massive ranches we have in the west. Its apples and oranges. The fact is that the BLM has shut down 52 huge ranches that employed many people in Clark County. It is no small deal to them, their families, and their employees. The actual numbers are way more than one percent of the people who work in cattle ranching for a living in Nevada. There is a reason that everyone in the west is on the side of Mr. Bundy. They live here. They know the score. Check out this video of a town meeting in Bunkerville. These are the local people that live here in Clark county. This is how they feel. Their attire might not fit in on Wall st, or downtown Toronto, but they fit in perfectly in their neck of the woods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncLjvoTa0Xw

I dont see any swastikas in the crowd. No klansmen. No white power signs. No one clad in camies hiding their face. These people are proud of who they are, and were they come from.

[martin14]

andyt andyt:

Delwin Delwin:

if enforcing the law costs more than the illegal activity taking place, does that mean it shouldn't be enforced

Yes. THX 1138

awww, see andy, here are 2 - 3 guys sitting down and actually researching stuff before posting,

even prepared to admit mistakes if they happen.


No wonder you are so confused.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

$1:

Just since 1980, over half a million ranching
operations have been eliminated from America’s landscape,
representing a decline of 41 percent. Beginning in 1996, the rate of loss of U.S. ranchers accelerated, and we have been losing about
12,000 ranching operations each year ever since. To put this in perspective,
the U.S. is losing more ranching operations each year than
there are in California, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Montana and North
Dakota combined.

The link explains why.

http://www.r-calfusa.com/consumer/10040 ... nchers.pdf

[martin14]

Delwin Delwin:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Another interesting fact: The siege involving the heavily armed new force of the BLM Bureaucracy happened a few days after Harry Reid's one time senior adviser took over as head of the BLM. Double-check that if you like. I didn't source it. Heard it on television.

This is completely true. Although I am failing to see the relevance maybe you could enlighten me.

But I'm sure you are quite happy to believe that Rob and Doug Ford collude together all the time, right ?

[Jabberwalker]

I'm sure that even Doug is surprised, sometimes at what he has to apologise for on his brother's behalf.

[andyt]

martin14 martin14:

andyt andyt:

Delwin Delwin:

if enforcing the law costs more than the illegal activity taking place, does that mean it shouldn't be enforced

Yes. THX 1138

awww, see andy, here are 2 - 3 guys sitting down and actually researching stuff before posting,

even prepared to admit mistakes if they happen.


No wonder you are so confused.

What research is required to make a joke? I doubt your parents did any research before they made you.

What has been your contribution to this thread except to fly in and shit on people as is your usual MO?

[stratos]

I heard this on the radio but not sure how true it is. Supposedly the Gov. raised the fee's for use of the land. Interesting enough is that the only one who's fees were raised/changed were Mr. Bundy's and no one else's who use this land area. That's how all this supposedly got started.

Is this true?

[Delwin]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Also you were asking why Neil Kornze being hired as head of the BLM shortly before the paramilitary attack on the Bundy ranch was ordered is relevant.

Neil Kornze was Senior advisor to Harry Reid before he landed the big money influence job heading BLM.

Harry Reid's fingerprints are all over what I'll now call Turtlegate.

There was also Harvey Whittemore.

$1:

Two years ago, a case was brought against Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s close friend and donor Harvey Whittemore. The charges related to illegal campaign donations to Senator Reid.

Whittemore is a businessman who has been described as a powerful businessman and lobbyist in Nevada. Apparently even powerful enough to make his money speak sweet-nothings to Senator Reid.

Of the business ventures of Harvey Whittemore included Coyote Springs, a planned living community on desert land. The proposed project would include 160,000 homes, twelve golf courses, and a number of hotel-casinos.

Regulations got in the way though. What was one major obstacle? Desert lands that included a sanctuary for the endangered desert tortoise.

The obstacles were eventually dodged. Senator Reid was a major reason this occurred, as he introduced legislation to allow Coyote Springs to be constructed. It also seemed to help that Whittemore’s personal attorney was Leif Reid, who contacted Senator Reid regarding the EPA resisting Coyote Springs construction.

Leif Reid, son of Senator Harry Reid.

Then there was the water rights issues raised by residents of multiple states, as well as environmentalists and local ranchers. While initially slowing the progress of Coyote Springs, agreements were reached. Of the employees at Whittemore’s law firm was Clark County Commission chairman and Southern Nevada Water Authority vice-chairman Rory Reid.

Rory Reid, son of Senator Harry Reid

This all would lead to the charges in 2012 of illegal campaign contributions to Senator Reid by Whittemore.

https://undercoverporcupine.bangordaily ... ranch-war/

Then there was the recently publicized one about Harry Reid and son pulling strings to get tortoise land for the Chinese to build a solar plant on.

Harry doesn't give a damn about saving the tortoise. What that article wasn't clear about concerning Harry's campaign fraud buddy's proposal with Coyote Springs was it's in Clark County - tortoise country, Bundy country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_Springs,_Nevada

So the politician who's shown a willingness to bend rules and kill turtles for the right money, has a proposal for Bundy's range if he can get Bundy off it. Coincidentally his head boy lands the big government job that will allow him to push Bundy off. A few days after Reid's boy lands that job a paramilitary group of hundreds carrying high powered arms land to push Bundy off the range. And we always thought BLM was just a bureaucracy.

Nevertheless if you don't see a connection there between all those characters, there's a Nigerian prince I'd like you to meet. He emails me every once in awhile.

You are trying to tie in matters that have nothing to do with Bundy's case, Bundy stopped paying in the Clinton administration, the Tortoise rules came into effect in the GHWB era. Fines have remained during 5 Administrations including 2 Republican without reprieve because it is the fucking law of the land.

If Harry reed and Whitmore were caught robbing a nursing home with ski masks and uzi's it has zero to do with the Bundy case. I get it, you don't like him.

You are connecting a lot of dots, just not to the argument we are having.

It is not Harry Reids job to give a shit about the turtles, he is a senator from Nevada. He represents the interest of the people of the State of Nevada at the senate level.

The BLM manages the land. The turtle is endangered. They have to make sure they can try to avoid making them extinct and land must be put aside as part of their mandate, which as I have mentioned is bi-partisan and has been around for a very long time.

However, development and job and energy creation must still continue at the same time and decisions about that development must be made. If he had kept paying his fees he would still have that land, however, when the guy failed to renew his grazing permit, he forfeited his rights to be involved in decisions regarding the land.

The BLM is not overstepping it's bounds by making decisions about the land that it is managing, that is their job description. I tell you what, If I am freshly appointed Director charged with managing the land, and I am looking at which land needs used to mitigate the lands which are going to be used for development, I am going to use the area that is being 600% overused and which fees haven't been paid in decades. It's the obvious choice.

Don't act like this is some kind of revelation out of nowhere.

Let the BLM do their jobs.