[commanderkai]

Brenda Brenda:

Hmmm, I don't know. If everything you believed in all your life turns out to be false, wouldn't you just turn your back, instead of still believing that some that was taught my be true?
If Christ turns out to be a lie, your life turns out to be a lie, because you based your life on serving Christ/God...

Is the question about the purpose of life or the meaning of life necessarily a religious one?

Why would my life be a lie? My life is my own. Yes, my life would be shaken, no doubt, much like I was shaken when I found out Santa Claus was fake (using a really weak example, but I can't think of an existing and true example), but my life would move on, and my internal questions about my purpose and meaning will still remain.

Yes, I do believe in Jesus, but my entire faith, let alone my life, doesn't revolve around Jesus. You know, the Holy Trinity? There are still the whole God part. If Jesus wasn't real, does that mean God is fake? Does that mean the Bible's lessons, even if the person who taught those lessons didn't exist, are totally wrong?

Also, for a good laugh...That's the great thing about the Old Testament, I still have Judaism as a backup Plus, no hell in case my life goes REALLY downhill!

I can't say how people who base their ENTIRE life on Jesus would react. My life is affected by my faith, no doubt. But it's also influenced by my desires, my family, my goals, and my challenges.

[andyt]

QBC QBC:

Your god got his ass handed to him by the turn the other cheek guy.

[commanderkai]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

True...that's been my point all along...religions come and go, whereas Science remains that same (it's still about independently verifiable facts) and if Christianity is demonstrated to be false, what's to stop people from turning to science for answers to the afterlife? Doesn't that demonstrate well the thread's topic?

Of course people can go to Science for questions about the afterlife. Unless I missed something, it's still something like: "We don't know." or, for a more cruel view "Your body rots away and is eaten by maggots and other little things". Maybe, in the future, science will prove that our essence or soul is transferred to another body (a la Babylon 5) or who knows what else. For now, I haven't really seen answers. If you found answers, then congratulations!

Of course, you can find meaning in science. Hell, you can find meaning in anything. Some people's purpose is to leave this world with a happy and secure family, or by leaving their mark in politics or culture or science or athletics.

And this is my point. These desires to find a meaning or a purpose. Or questions about the afterlife or anything else, have been a constant presence in humanity. Something that, as of now, Religion (as in, the general idea why any and all religions exist) has held a stranglehold in providing answers or guidance for. Religions, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or the many other faiths do change, sure, but Religion, as in why religions exist and why people believe in religions, will stay around. Science, as in independently verifiable facts, will stay constant, even if sciences like alchemy die off.

[Brenda]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Brenda Brenda:

Hmmm, I don't know. If everything you believed in all your life turns out to be false, wouldn't you just turn your back, instead of still believing that some that was taught my be true?
If Christ turns out to be a lie, your life turns out to be a lie, because you based your life on serving Christ/God...

Is the question about the purpose of life or the meaning of life necessarily a religious one?

Why would my life be a lie? My life is my own. Yes, my life would be shaken, no doubt, much like I was shaken when I found out Santa Claus was fake (using a really weak example, but I can't think of an existing and true example), but my life would move on, and my internal questions about my purpose and meaning will still remain.

Yes, I do believe in Jesus, but my entire faith, let alone my life, doesn't revolve around Jesus. You know, the Holy Trinity? There are still the whole God part. If Jesus wasn't real, does that mean God is fake? Does that mean the Bible's lessons, even if the person who taught those lessons didn't exist, are totally wrong?

Also, for a good laugh...That's the great thing about the Old Testament, I still have Judaism as a backup Plus, no hell in case my life goes REALLY downhill!

I can't say how people who base their ENTIRE life on Jesus would react. My life is affected by my faith, no doubt. But it's also influenced by my desires, my family, my goals, and my challenges.

I was thinking about it the other way around too.
I don't believe, but what if my non-belief turns out to be false? What if what the bible says is totally true?
My life is kinda of the same as yours, it is affected by my non-belief. Would it be a total lie when it turns out that Jesus and God and afterlife and heaven and hell really do exist? No. I would accept it, but it wouldn't affect the way I live my life.

[commanderkai]

Brenda Brenda:

I was thinking about it the other way around too.
I don't believe, but what if my non-belief turns out to be false? What if what the bible says is totally true?
My life is kinda of the same as yours, it is affected by my non-belief. Would it be a total lie when it turns out that Jesus and God and afterlife and heaven and hell really do exist? No. I would accept it, but it wouldn't affect the way I live my life.

Basically. The one issue is that even if Christianity is proven false somehow, like with a time machine, I still don't see how you can prove every single religious faith wrong, let alone being able to answer questions about the afterlife that is satisfying to all people.

Proving one religion false is "easy" because all it takes is to chip away at one of its major symbols. You prove Jesus wasn't actually a person, then Christianity will fade away (Islam and Mormonism too, because they do say Jesus was a prophet, though their religions might not be as HUGELY hit) but other religions will take its place. Christianity filled the void when the Egyptian/Greek/Roman religions were in decline. Something will take the place of Christianity if it is proven totally false. Would a great number of non-believers/atheists come about? Of course, but probably many more people who believe in a God, heaven and hell, so on so forth, without the Jesus aspect (and this is where I'd be, I'd assume).

If one day God decided to become some booming voice or burning bush and started giving all the answers to all the questions to one and all, then yes, there will be a hell of a lot of new believers. That doesn't mean you're going to become a nun, forgo drinking, or make your entire life revolve around your religious belief.

[PostFactum]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

PostFactum PostFactum:

So you don't believe that science will change?

Its core methodology won't - it will always involve the search for knowledge based on independently verifiable objective evidence.

Religion will change...science won't. Our understanding of our world, even scientific disciplines, will undoubtedly change, but that's due to the scientific method, not despite it.

Believe and not believe, try to feel the difference between the words:"do not say" and "say nothing".

[Mustang1]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

True...that's been my point all along...religions come and go, whereas Science remains that same (it's still about independently verifiable facts) and if Christianity is demonstrated to be false, what's to stop people from turning to science for answers to the afterlife? Doesn't that demonstrate well the thread's topic?

Of course people can go to Science for questions about the afterlife. Unless I missed something, it's still something like: "We don't know." or, for a more cruel view "Your body rots away and is eaten by maggots and other little things". Maybe, in the future, science will prove that our essence or soul is transferred to another body (a la Babylon 5) or who knows what else. For now, I haven't really seen answers. If you found answers, then congratulations!

Of course, you can find meaning in science. Hell, you can find meaning in anything. Some people's purpose is to leave this world with a happy and secure family, or by leaving their mark in politics or culture or science or athletics.

And this is my point. These desires to find a meaning or a purpose. Or questions about the afterlife or anything else, have been a constant presence in humanity. Something that, as of now, Religion (as in, the general idea why any and all religions exist) has held a stranglehold in providing answers or guidance for. Religions, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or the many other faiths do change, sure, but Religion, as in why religions exist and why people believe in religions, will stay around. Science, as in independently verifiable facts, will stay constant, even if sciences like alchemy die off.

The main difference is that science exists independently whereas religion is a human construct. Biology - if we remove semantics - exists, but Christianity requires human dogma, theology, doctrine and theology in order to be.

I'm not sure if the need for religion will remain constant as Western history clearly demonstrates that it isn't or why is it in decline?

[Mustang1]

PostFactum PostFactum:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

PostFactum PostFactum:

So you don't believe that science will change?

Its core methodology won't - it will always involve the search for knowledge based on independently verifiable objective evidence.

Religion will change...science won't. Our understanding of our world, even scientific disciplines, will undoubtedly change, but that's due to the scientific method, not despite it.

Believe and not believe, try to feel the difference between the words:"do not say" and "say nothing".

Science doesn't require belief, Yoda. Want to try it? Step off your roof and deny the existence of gravity. Tell us how that goes.

[PostFactum]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

PostFactum PostFactum:

So you don't believe that science will change?

Its core methodology won't - it will always involve the search for knowledge based on independently verifiable objective evidence.

Religion will change...science won't. Our understanding of our world, even scientific disciplines, will undoubtedly change, but that's due to the scientific method, not despite it.

Believe and not believe, try to feel the difference between the words:"do not say" and "say nothing".

Science doesn't require belief, Yoda. Want to try it? Step off your roof and deny the existence of gravity. Tell us how that goes. [/quote]
Doesn't require belief? And where is the belivef in in things that you do, in thing that it will be done. Try to do that you've recommended to me on the 10-th floor. And I have no doubt that you will not think about Neuton laws, you will prath all the falling time.

[Mustang1]

PostFactum PostFactum:

Doesn't require belief? And where is the belivef in in things that you do, in thing that it will be done. Try to do that you've recommended to me on the 10-th floor. And I have no doubt that you will not think about Neuton laws, you will prath all the falling time.

Didn't get it, did ya? I don't need to test gravity...it's already been tested. It's not faith, it's fact. It's interesting that you won't test your faith though. Oh...and when you start your car, does it also run on belief?

[PostFactum]

So you believe in what yot just know. And that's all. you was never trying it from 10-th, you only "know". So here it is:-).

[DerbyX]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

PostFactum PostFactum:

Doesn't require belief? And where is the belivef in in things that you do, in thing that it will be done. Try to do that you've recommended to me on the 10-th floor. And I have no doubt that you will not think about Neuton laws, you will prath all the falling time.

Didn't get it, did ya? I don't need to test gravity...it's already been tested. It's not faith, it's fact. It's interesting that you won't test your faith though. Oh...and when you start your car, does it also run on belief?

I had an old VW Rabbit that did. Every time I turned the key I needed to say a little prayer in the belief she had at least 1 more day left in her.

[Dayseed]

PostFactum PostFactum:

So you believe in what yot just know. And that's all. you was never trying it from 10-th, you only "know". So here it is:-).

Okay, that's pretty impoverished thought. And wrong too.

The theory of gravity, among other theories, have incredible predictive power that separates them from your religious explanations. In other words, given a certain set of circumstances, the theory of gravity will accurately predict the force of attraction between two masses given their distance.

Taking those same two masses and distance and asking God what attraction there should be between them and waiting for divine revelation on the answer is stupid.

When what I "know" is both predictive of the future AND is falsifiable, then it's more powerful than beliefs in spooky sky-faeries intervening via hitherto unexplained physical forces.

And back on topic, 400 years ago you could have had me put in a tower getting pelted with scorching hot rocks until I whispered the name of the person the Devil had assumed to whisper such blasphemy in my ear.

Now? You just look like a grown-up child believing in adult fairy-tales and I can openly question your religion to the point it looks ridiculous.

[commanderkai]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

The main difference is that science exists independently whereas religion is a human construct. Biology - if we remove semantics - exists, but Christianity requires human dogma, theology, doctrine and theology in order to be.

I'm not sure if the need for religion will remain constant as Western history clearly demonstrates that it isn't or why is it in decline?

Yes, Christianity requires those various constructs to exist as a church. But what created organized religion is still a part of us, and it still strives us to hunt down the meaning for one's existence, or for the answers to questions like the afterlife. That's why people convert, or gain their faith after long periods of not caring.

You're arguing that Science exists independently. You're right. Without humans, Science will still continue through biology, or plate tectonics, or the various other motions of the planet and the universe. Of course, if God(s) exists, you can say the same thing about God as well. God(s) will exist long after humanity doesn't because God, or Gods created humanity, the planet, etc etc etc in the first place. If you don't want to factor in the human element, then what's the point? Hawking, Einstein, Newton, etc various discoveries are really just giving us understanding of what already exists. If we lose their understanding through some disaster, gravity will still work.

The study of science really isn't that different from the desire of religion either. Both strive to find answers to the many questions that exist within, and around us. Yes, science is the study of things that exist as independently verifiable facts...2+2=4, to every human or alien in existence. The planet revolves around the sun to all humans. We strive to discover answers. Science provides the answers to things that are already known to be true, even if we don't know if they're true yet. Religion, both the organized, and the spiritual sense, provides answers that we can't prove true or false.

What I'm contending is that our "Religion", or the desire to answer the subjective questions that we all ask ourselves and one another (What is the meaning of life, or one's existence, or our purpose, or what happens after death). The "Human Religion" or human spirituality will stay as constant as science until all humans cease to exist. And then, one must ask, what happens to our humanity after we die? Do all of our achievements rot away, erode, disintegrate, or vanish? Does our essence or our "soul" live on in some other dimension or other living being?

And church attendance is less than it was 50 years ago....so? 50 years from now there will be a religious resurgence. Or maybe Christianity will cease to exist. A huge percentage of people still consider themselves religious or spiritual, and attending Sunday Mass does not make one more or less religious in its own right.

[Mustang1]

commanderkai commanderkai:

And church attendance is less than it was 50 years ago....so? 50 years from now there will be a religious resurgence. Or maybe Christianity will cease to exist. A huge percentage of people still consider themselves religious or spiritual, and attending Sunday Mass does not make one more or less religious in its own right.

No...church attendance is not only less than it was, it's in general decline. If the salient point is "Science will win out over religion" than, in a Western context, the latter can be demonstrated to be "losing". Will there be a "religious resurgence"? Doubtful. And spiritual and religious are not synonymous - spiritualism isn't dogma insomuch as it can encompass other ideas, worldviews and intellectual approaches (including science).

At the end of day, "believers" argue their point, not due to merit, but because it rationalizes their worldview. It's not about objective fact, it's about self-esteem. I'm not disagreeing with that, but it certainly doesn't substantiate their point.