[Akhenaten]

sengo sengo:

2009-10-27, 11:55:37 - You posted a quote from a doctor indicating influenza vaccine does 'not save lives', a quote that is contradicted by multiple studies, many of which have been posted on this site.

For those who need a link we can see right here that sengo is full of it.

Easy.

[Scape]

[segno]

Strutz Strutz:

I am not getting the shot. Never have. Only once have I caught the "major" flu of the season and that was about 8 years ago ...

First of all, when you say "major" flu, does that mean that in other years you have had other influenza infections, but didn't get as sick?

Secondly, what you've stated is an anecdote, and it should be pointed out that your history of what has happened in the past is no guarantee what will happen in the future.

Consider this: On any given year, the flu affects approximately 5-20% of the population. This will of course vary with the strain of flu, etc. and just sheer randomness. Now, you're probably an otherwise healthy adult... lets peg your chance of getting the flu at 10%. (This is a back-of-the-envelope calculation.) So, your chance of going 7 years without a 'major' flu attack just by chance alone is 0.9^7 is around 48%. That's a pretty high number. It means that your 'success' in defeating the flu has a good chance of being due simply to dumb luck. (You might have a very poor immune system and still have the same 48% chance of avoiding the flu just by chance.)

$1:

I refuse to fall into the fear mongering trap that the media like to set to get everyone all excited and up in arms.

Many people will agree that there is over-hype in the media (even most of us who favour vaccination). That doesn't mean that there isn't a reason to be concerned and/or get vaccinated.

$1:

Stats and reports from different sources that contradict each other...no wonder so many are confused.

There is SOME conflicting data regarding some of the minor details... expected mortality rate, required vaccine dosage.

But, there are some things for which pretty much all proper science studies have agreed on:
- The side effects of this vaccine (as with previous influenza vaccines) are negligable and typically vanish in a day or 2
- Past seasonal flu vaccines have reduced the total rate of illness and mortality. (Some years were better than others...)
- The vaccine for this year does illustrate the proper build-up of antibodies in the body
There is little or no proper scientific evidence contradicting any of the above statements.

$1:

I do agree with a comment already made here about medication actually weakening your own natural defences.

A vaccine doesn't weaken natural defenses. It strengthens them by 'training' them to recognize certain microbes

$1:

Personally, I have found that I don't even catch the common cold as often as I once did since I stopped taking medication for every sniffle. If I do get sick I let the virus run it's course, which it will anyway, meds or not. I will rarely even take anything for a headache as there are non-medicinal ways to rid yourself of this without putting unknown chemicals in your body.

I avoid taking headache medicine too, but mostly because I like to show how manly I am...

$1:

I have gotten much better at eating healthier foods, allowing myself more sleep time and taking the simple precautions such as hand-washing.

There is nothing wrong with those precautions... they will certainly help. Just that the vaccine will add just that much more protection.

[Akhenaten]

sengo sengo:

2009-10-27, 11:55:37 - You posted a quote from a doctor indicating influenza vaccine does 'not save lives', a quote that is contradicted by multiple studies, many of which have been posted on this site.

For those who need a link we can see right here that sengo is full of it.

Easy.

[DrCaleb]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

sengo sengo:

2009-10-27, 11:55:37 - You posted a quote from a doctor indicating influenza vaccine does 'not save lives', a quote that is contradicted by multiple studies, many of which have been posted on this site.

For those who need a link we can see right here that sengo is full of it.

Easy.

Indeed. I too take the 'lying' designation a bit harshly.

He is quite incorrect in his assessment of that post. But I believe he did post studies that vaccines save lives. Whether this one will remains to be seen.

Scape, I wonder too why they screen baggage for bombs before you get on a plane; but let people queue up to check in said luggage before they go through security . . .

[Brenda]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Brenda Brenda:

I guess you missed the part where he called me a "bad mother"?

sengo sengo:

"I suggested that an individual who favoured exposing their children to diseases that claim hundreds of lives a year was not necessarily acting i the best intrest of her children."

He didn't, but you still took it personally because he made the blunder of using 'her' instead of 'their' and made it appear to be directed at you. It's his opinion. That opinion may be incorrect, but it's still just an opinion.

It may also be in the best interests of the child to not be exposed to the vaccine, especially if that child is allergic to eggs. That doesn't mean anyone is a bad parent, something missing from his opinion.

He apologized to the mods, but refused to apologize to me. I think I am not stupid enough to NOT read into it what he meant.

He did not blunder. He is not stupid enough to not state what he meant.

[segno]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

sengo sengo:

2009-10-27, 11:55:37 - You posted a quote from a doctor indicating influenza vaccine does 'not save lives', a quote that is contradicted by multiple studies, many of which have been posted on this site.

For those who need a link we can see right here that sengo is full of it.

Easy.

Indeed. I too take the 'lying' designation a bit harshly.

He is quite incorrect in his assessment of that post.

Of course, what Akhenaten has done is referred to a post that I hadn't even addressed.

Problem is, that wasn't any of the posts that I was referring to.

The posts I am referring to are here:
current-events-f59/canadians-coast-to-coast-roll-up-their-sleeves-for-h1n1-vacc-t84905-15.html#p1569083 (This is where he posts a quote from a doctor claiming that influenza vaccines "do not save lives")

After I accused him of making anti-vax posts, he claimed I was lying. I posted the exact date and time the post was made (although without a direct reference) yet he still claimed I was a liar.

[Akhenaten]

lol. And anyone can see that post doesn't say anything of the sort. This is the post you refer to with your url:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

"Prevalance of Flu: Every year, 10 percent to 20 percent of Americans get sick with the flu (influenza). "

Right off the top proculation they're talking about any flu, not the specific one the vaccine addresses (as you point out it doesn't cover all flu strains).

Further, from your site:

"Prognosis of Flu: Good for healthy adults and children. Risks for infants, elderly, or other at-risk people. "


Even so the numbers on your site indicate that given all flu types that my chances are, as you correct me: 1 in 10-20 of getting it (5-10%) and 1 in about 3600 of dying from it if I get it ....and here's the clincher: no evidence (that i've seen) that the vaccine will prevent it.

But thanks for getting some good stats though.

Where do I post a quote from a doctor claiming that influenza vaccines don't save lives?

$1:

After I accused him of making anti-vax posts, he claimed I was lying. I posted the exact date and time the post was made (although without a direct reference) yet he still claimed I was a liar.

That's because you are. You're looking pretty stupid assuming everyone else here is stupid.

[Proculation]

whose father is stronger ?

[Akhenaten]

lol. Easy for you to say Proculation. I'll remember that next time someone here is obviously mischaracterizing what you said, lying about what you said and then keeps on lying about it.

[segno]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

lol. And anyone can see that post doesn't say anything of the sort. This is the post you refer to with your url:

Yes, I messed up the posting when I pasted in the URL. Its a typo. Deal with it...

This should be the correct one:
current-events-f59/canadians-coast-to-coast-roll-up-their-sleeves-for-h1n1-vacc-t84905.html#p1569083

Edited to add:
In that post, you quote:
"There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza."
-Dr. J. Anthony Morris

Sounds pretty anti-vax to me.

[Strutz]

segno segno:

See above post where he responds to my previous post. Not going to repeat what is already here and waste space

I must say segno I'm flattered. In all my 1942 posts so far no one has ever quoted me so much! Did my simple comments really bother you that much or do you just not accept yet another person not agreeing with you?

Since you have made your position in this issue so very firm I am not going to waste my time arguing with your arguments against what I said. However I will point out that you quoted me on everything but my closing remarks which was (in case you missed it):

Strutz Strutz:

I hope all of you survive the flu season whether you get the flu shot or not, this is your personal choice to make.
Do what you feel is right for you, not what other posters are promoting.

[Akhenaten]

segno segno:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

lol. And anyone can see that post doesn't say anything of the sort. This is the post you refer to with your url:

Yes, I messed up the posting when I pasted in the URL. Its a typo. Deal with it...

This should be the correct one:
current-events-f59/canadians-coast-to-coast-roll-up-their-sleeves-for-h1n1-vacc-t84905.html#p1569083

Edited to add:
In that post, you quote:
"There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza."
-Dr. J. Anthony Morris

Sounds pretty anti-vax to me.

What you messed up like 3-4 times now? And if you had been following it I later retract it after Proculation posted some other information and thanked him for doing it. After all that's what smart critical thinkers do.

I also pointed this out to you yesterday and you STILL need to ignore it:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Every year a slightly new strain and a doomsday prediction. Every year it blows over, with or without a vaccination. I don't think vaccination is a dirty word. I don't think people shouldn't be vaccinated. If I were over 55 or had children I would probably vaccinate. But I'm not taking a 1 in 3 chance by not vaccinating. The suggestion is laughable. At least it is for anyone with a memory that stretches back more than 12 months.

Yep. Sounds real 'anti-vaccination'. You'd think a smart 'critical thinker' like yourself would be able to read without having to have it pushed into his face over and over and over again.

Now prove to us you can read. Tell us how the quoted response to one of your posts here is 'anti-vaxx'?

[DrCaleb]

Some more info for those still on the fence:

$1:

Education officials said 70 per cent of the students at one small school on the Burin Peninsula were off sick, while St. Thomas of Villanova in Conception Bay South, near St. John's, reported that 40 per cent of its junior high students were out of class.

In Calgary, schools are required to contact public health authorities whenever the absentee rate climbs above 10 per cent.

"What we are seeing now, I've never seen before," Dr. Judy MacDonald, Alberta's deputy medical officer of health, said Wednesday. "We've been getting upwards of 10 reports like that from schools in the Calgary area for the last week or so, so we know there is a lot of influenza-like activity out there."

While the Calgary Board of Education won't reveal which schools have high absentee rates, spokesman Ted Flitton said some schools are reporting student absences of between one and 30 per cent.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/10/ ... n-flu.html

[Akhenaten]

Ok good info but admittedly a lot of school absences doesn't equate to a lot of people who actually have H1N1 right?

Where was that story where 100's of people were going to the emergancy room with sniffles and a headache but only a couple actually had H1N1?