[Streaker]

Shaddup, Burns!!

Marty here is a world authority on life in the Caucasus!

[martin14]

no.

if burns has lived in Russia, he knows full well the Russians dont give a damn
about human rights.

[Zipperfish]

Scape Scape:

I wouldn't go so far to say it is state controlled but the bread crumbs the media follows seems to be rather suspicious. If you have heard of Ron Suskind I would refer you to DN and his interview.
Pt 1

Pt 2

This is all under congressional review and frankly I hope something comes of this but frankly I have my doubts because the difference between national security and national embarrassment as it comes to classified documents is one and the same at least as far as the current administration is concerned.

I can't access media streaming sites at work, but I'll look into it later. And to be clear, I wasn't implying that US media were state controlled. Quite the contrary--they are probably one of the most free presses in the world. It's just interesting that, given that freedom, a lot of them just tout the government pap given to them.

Some papers adn news outlets as much as admitted this in the disastrous aftermath of the Iraq invasion, and the realization that there were no Al Qaeda connections or weapons of mass destrcution. Yet here they are again, mindlessly parroting whatever the government tells them.

[Scape]

US is 48th

So it's not too bad, but definite room for improvement. It's not that the press is not free but as the saying goes water flows to the path of least resistance. The art of journalism has taken a nose dive over that last decade and everyone knows it. It's not as blatant as Pravda but dam close and the ways and means that such disinformation is discriminated is in plain sight. A lot of government talking points circulate without even the most cursory level of verification and that graft is as bad as subversive control will ever be.

[C.M. Burns]

martin14 martin14:

no.

if burns has lived in Russia, he knows full well the Russians dont give a damn
about human rights.

Did I say they did? No.
moron

[C.M. Burns]

From the Institute for Democracy in Eastern Europe
(obviously written before the events of the last week)

$1:

Georgia: Crisis of Democracy

In November 2007, facing serious united political opposition and massive protests demanding early parliamentary elections, the Saakashvili government in Georgia responded by imposing a state of emergency. Police used brutal force and violence against peaceful demonstrators and closed down and wrecked the equipment of the main independent television station. For those who had struggled for Georgia's freedom over a generation and had rallied around the Rose Revolution in 2003, the actions of President Saakashvili were shocking, signaling a grave crisis of democracy. But the international community responded tepidly against such blatant human rights violations and generally accepted President Saakashvili's justification for the violence and martial law. Saakashvili painted the opposition — including parliament members, longtime democratic parties, former allies, and those who had spent time in Soviet jails fighting for Georgia's national freedom — of being Russian agents and coup plotters. The absurdity of this mischaracterization may be seen in the Manifesto of the united opposition (the All People's Movement) around which the protests were organized. The united opposition called for a restoration of free conditions for elections in the face of a presidential administration that had "usurped all state authority" and instituted a system of political intimidation.

Despite the fact that the state of emergency was still in effect, the interntational community supported Saakashvili's calling of early and snap presidential elections for January 5, 2008. Although the chances were clearly unequal, the opposition was forced to agree to participate in the elections along with a referendum on whether there should be early parliamentary polls, which had been the original opposition demand. A single candidate of a nine-party opposition coalition called the All People's Movement, Levan Gachechiladze, ran against Saakashvili along with five other candidates who diffused the opposition vote. The "election" resulted in widespead charges of fraud, intimidation, and other efforts to skew the election. Although the opposition coalition had hundreds of complaints of fraud, the Central Election Commission declared Saakashvili the victor in the first round with 53.9 percent of the vote against 25.6 percent for Gachechiladze, with Saakashvili surpassing the 50 percent threshold to avoid a second round. The CEC affirmation is doubtful. The more than 300 complaints filed after the election demonstrate widespread manipulation of the vote. The OSCE-ODIHR's final report makes clear that the elections were held under undemocratic conditions, stating that "the distinction between State activities and the campaign of the ruling United National Movement (UNM) party candidate, were blurred." It also stated that there were poor tabulation procdures at the local level ("a significant 23 per cent of counts observed by IEOM observers were assessed as bad or very bad"), and that there were questionable results based on a high level of last-minute voting, improper consideration of complaints by the courts, and other irregularities (see OSCE/ODIHR Final Report of 2008 Presidential Elections). Already by December 7, 2007, Transparency International had documented widespread misuse of state administrative resources on behalf of President Saakashvili. Similar inadequacies — and clear signs of misuse of power — were also witnessed in municipal elections as documented in the OSCE/ODIHR's Final Report on 2006 Municipal Elections. (And even earlier, in May 2005 prior to President George W. Bush's landmark trip to the country, Ivlian Haindrava, director of the Center for Development and Cooperation, had laid out the danger signs in his article "Georgia's Incomplete Democracy.")

Much of the international community has supported the continued administration of President Saakashvili — whatever the wishes of Georgian voters — for two reasons: an unwillingness to believe that the "leader" of the Rose Revolution that overthrew Eduard Shevardnadze could be non-democratic and, second, acceptance of Saakashvili's claim that only he will thwart Russia's designs for greater power in the Caucasus. The first reason is belied by the abandonment of Saakashvili by most of his allies in the Rose Revolution and his unlikely "majority total" in the elections; the second is belied by the opposition's general support for integration with the West. The crisis of democracy in Georgia will continue. January 5 also saw overwhelming approval of a referendum to hold early parliamentary elections, the main opposition demand. These are now likely to be held in May. For those elections, the Republican Party, one of the strongest opposition parties and strongest representative of pro-Western liberalism, will compete separately but in cooperation with the All People's Movement t (see links below). The question is whether allies of democracy in Georgia will rally to the support of its democrats.

Source

And before you knucklegraggers go claiming they're some front group for whomever, check their street address and their street cred:

The Institute for Democracy in Eastern Europe (IDEE) is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to the active promotion of democracy, civil society, and human rights throughout Eastern Europe, the former Soviet Union, and other communist or post-communist countries. IDEE also seeks to share the experiences of democratic opposition and transformation in Eastern Europe with other countries and regions seeking democratic change.

IDEE began in 1985 as an extension of the Committee in Support of Solidarity, which had supported Poland's underground Solidarity movement since 1981. In addition to continuing to organize key support to Solidarity underground, IDEE supported the growing human rights and opposition movements in the countries of Eastern Europe seeking democratic change and an end to communism.

[martin14]

C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:

martin14 martin14:

no.

if burns has lived in Russia, he knows full well the Russians dont give a damn
about human rights.

Did I say they did? No.
moron

ooooh nice comeback.. took a whole half hour to come up with that ?
then why are you so happy to defend them ?

[tritium]

Russia is getting to be a pain, from invading Georgia to invading Canada's arctic sovereignty.

[llama66]

$1:

"I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia, and that is a notion that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders."

I love this contradiction, are we not doing this very thing? dictating or exercising control in another country? I know we are there to spread "freedom" and that we, the west, can do no wrong. Russia was attacked, Russia responded, but since Georgia was pro-west, its a case of Russia just attacking because they are a bunch of pricks. It must be nice not to have to think too much, I know its easy to accept whats spoon-fed to you by CNN and Fox news. people claim Russia has a poor human rights record. Can anyone name a country that has not killed or oppressed? Perhaps people should realize we are not as innocent as we hold ourselves out to be. We (the west) attacked and invaded 2 sovereign nations, we invaded one on emotion, and the other due to deception. We are just as bad as Russia.

[saturn_656]

llama66 llama66:

I love this contradiction, are we not doing this very thing? dictating or exercising control in another country? I know we are there to spread "freedom" and that we, the west, can do no wrong. Russia was attacked, Russia responded, but since Georgia was pro-west, its a case of Russia just attacking because they are a bunch of pricks. It must be nice not to have to think too much, I know its easy to accept whats spoon-fed to you by CNN and Fox news. people claim Russia has a poor human rights record. Can anyone name a country that has not killed or oppressed? Perhaps people should realize we are not as innocent as we hold ourselves out to be. We (the west) attacked and invaded 2 sovereign nations, we invaded one on emotion, and the other due to deception. We are just as bad as Russia.

Russia was NOT attacked, Georgia was operating within its INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS.

For a crude analogy, think Quebec splits from Canada. The Canadian military enters to reassert control. The Americans use that as a pretext to invade Canada because there are American citizens in Quebec ("false" citizens mind you).

Afghanistan backed a terrorist group that launched an attack against the United States, on its own soil. Justifiable pretext for an attack IMO.

Iraq was a cluster fuck, but we never joined that coalition of the willing so it doesn't have any bearing as far as "we" are concerned.

So no "we" are not as bad as Russia. We are a band of bloody carebears compared to the Russians.

[llama66]

So, 12 Russian Peacekeepers were not killed by an unprovoked rocket attack, under the guise of a cease-fire?
Russian Peacekeepers have been in South Ossetia since 1992.
Georgia's credibility went out the window when they attacked first, and the International community knows it. if you were to watch something other than Fox News or CNN you would see what was going on.

$1:

Afghanistan backed a terrorist group that launched an attack against the United States, on its own soil. Justifiable pretext for an attack IMO.

Can you prove al qaeda was backed by the Taliban? can anyone for that matter?

as for the Iraq bit, I believe I said we (the west).

and no we are not carebears compared to the Russians. We are the same, only Russia hasn't killed untold thousands in the pursuit of spreading "freedom" (from the end of a gun no less)

[martin14]

llama66 llama66:

So, 12 Russian Peacekeepers were not killed by an unprovoked rocket attack, under the guise of a cease-fire?
Russian Peacekeepers have been in South Ossetia since 1992.
Georgia's credibility went out the window when they attacked first, and the International community knows it. if you were to watch something other than Fox News or CNN you would see what was going on.

$1:

Afghanistan backed a terrorist group that launched an attack against the United States, on its own soil. Justifiable pretext for an attack IMO.

Can you prove al qaeda was backed by the Taliban? can anyone for that matter?

as for the Iraq bit, I believe I said we (the west).

and no we are not carebears compared to the Russians. We are the same, only Russia hasn't killed untold thousands in the pursuit of spreading "freedom" (from the end of a gun no less)

i think the Talibans' refusal to give up Bin Laden in the fall of 2001 says enough.



and Llama, you are right, the Russians are not killing untold thousands for spreading freedom, they do it simply to increase their own power. they have not
finished in Georgia yet, and we are forgetting Chechnya.

[llama66]

$1:

i think the Talibans' refusal to give up Bin Laden in the fall of 2001 says enough.



and Llama, you are right, the Russians are not killing untold thousands for spreading freedom, they do it simply to increase their own power. they have not
finished in Georgia yet, and we are forgetting Chechnya.

I believe the Taliban stated they would have no problem giving up Bin Laden, IF, there was proof that bin Laden was behind 9/11, no proof was offered, instead we attacked.

on the second point I agree, this is to increase power, but then you must concede Iraq is the same. all every nation is out to do is increase power.

[martin14]

i do not agree 100% Iraq is the same, but i can see some similarities.

If we agree that democracy is better than dictatorship ( and do we ? ),
at least the Americans have some history of placing some democratic institutions
in its wake.. I think of Japan, Germany, other West Euro countires, the Phillipines..

i said some, not all.. sometimes it was 'well, he may be a sonofabitch,
but at least he is our sonofabitch'.. Chile,Iran,and Saddam in the 80's.

The Russians dont beleive in democracy, they certainly dont try to spread it in the world.. they just put in their own despot, and thats it.

so i cant agree Russia and the US are the same.

[C.M. Burns]

tritium tritium:

Russia is getting to be a pain, from invading Georgia to invading Canada's arctic sovereignty.

Invading Canada's arctic sovereignty

Next you're going to tell us that they killed the Easter Bunny!!!