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As for sanctions, you derided them when I said they should be toughened up. Now you claim to be for them.
I derided them and still do for the simple fact that 1: They had no teeth, 2: even if/when they have teeth it takes decades if not longer to actually have any significant effects. What I said earlier (many pages ago) that sanctions with a military presence was needed. That is what I was referring to.
Now it seems your statements of the Ukraine standing up for its self before the west should help were actually just blah blah blah from you seeing as how you now are saying I meant tougher Sanctions is what we would do now. OMG AndyT why say to the Ukraine okay we've put some sanctions into place now before we do more to help you, you have to help yourself, go and fight the separatists. They have done so and are doing so and you are now saying okay great now we will put in sanctions with teeth.
That is not in any way shape or form what one would have implied as helping the Ukraine now that they are fighting the separatist as you told them to. So what were you truly meaning when you said that the Ukraine should not expect help from the West if they would not stand up for themselves?
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Meanwhile confront the armed separatists with force of arms wherever possible without killing too many civilians, as Ukraine is doing now and as I called for from the beginning.
As many called for, I was not against it but at the same time understood the hesitancy of the armed forces in taking action. I'm not sure who actually did shoot first but what ever side did, it now can spiral out of control very fast thus my agreement with you on the peace talks side. But lets say the talks fail, now mind you that you did encourage standing up to the separatist. What should the West do if the fighting continues? More Sanctions once again? I've pointed out that sanctions take a freaking long time to work even in your post you have people admitting that
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People are saying the sanctions are starting to bite and Putin seems to be backing off. Give them time to work.
Like I said previously still having armed forces at the boarder is not backing off. Yet you and others seem to insist that because Russia has not invaded that it means they have backed off.
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See, thinking in spectrum instead of black and white isn't so hard.
AndyT it was not ever us (on this thread unable to see in spectrum) it was and has been you. Your insistence that PF did not know as much about what was going on in the Ukraine as you did because you read news reports. That you derided PF for not going to the front and fighting. Showed how unable you were to see other points of view. Now here I am asking you to now expound on what you meant with something you have said previously, seeing as how your set conditions have now happened. Either you wont, can't or just plain were posting to post with no real thoughts of, in this case, what you meant.
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