[Proculation]

Let me just ask you something, think at this in a philosophical way: Can you you achieve freedom without having private ownership ?

[romanP]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

Indeed.

Thus proving my point, you haven't got a fucking clue in your head because you're willfully ignorant and a bigot, just like Rush Limbaugh. You don't know what it means to dehumanise, you make things up, and you have no real interest in knowing anyway.

[romanP]

Proculation Proculation:

Let me just ask you something, think at this in a philosophical way: Can you you achieve freedom without having private ownership ?

If you want to think about this philosophically, the best way to be free is to own nothing. Are you truly free if you own property that you have to maintain and pay taxes for?

[OPP]

romanP romanP:

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

Indeed.

Thus proving my point, you haven't got a fucking clue in your head because you're willfully ignorant and a bigot, just like Rush Limbaugh. You don't know what it means to dehumanise, you make things up, and you have no real interest in knowing anyway.

[Proculation]

romanP romanP:

Proculation Proculation:

Let me just ask you something, think at this in a philosophical way: Can you you achieve freedom without having private ownership ?

If you want to think about this philosophically, the best way to be free is to own nothing. Are you truly free if you own property that you have to maintain and pay taxes for?

My answer to that is: if you want to, go for it !
If I want to go into the woods and hunt for a living... what's the problem with that ?
That is freedom.

[BartSimpson]

OPP OPP:

No, I understand it perfectly. Capitalsim means a minimum of regulation and private ownership, as opposed to public ownership. When there is no public ownership, those who have accumulated wealth/capital controle society and enjoy lifes little luxuries like a proper education, good standard of living and, of coarse, power.
Those in poverty stay impoveriched, uneducated and powerless. You see, capitalism is a trasnsfer of wealth and power to a small elite while socialims is striving for equality and evenly destributing capital/wealth and power among all classes of society.

So, you see, this "economic chrisis" we're seeing today is not a chrisis at all. It's just further transfer of wealth from the majority into the hands of an already powerful and wealthy minority or elite.
While you're loosing your home, these people are out buying houses at a bargain! Isn't it neet!?

You really need to stop reading Marx.

Capitalism merely allows people to profit from their industriousness and resourcefulness.

A transfer of wealth to a small elite also occurs in socialism. Fidel Castro is reportedly a billionaire, for instance, while the average person in Cuba is destitute. And the Soviet leaders all lived like kings while the average Soviet citizen barely eked out an existence.

So socialism is not a guarantee of an equal distribution of wealth.

Capitalism at least gives people the opportunity to become wealthy and to enjoy the fruits of their creativity and labor. Socialism on the other hand ends up discouraging people from creating wealth that will be confiscated by government via taxation and other schemes. Consequently, socialist nations end up being poor nations.

Capitalism isn't fair. Neither is life.

But the bottom line is that in the modern economy if someone else is wealthy that has no effect on my opportunity to become wealthy. We no longer live in zero sum economies so the old adage that rich people became wealthy at the expense of others is simply not true anymore and it is only uttered by those who are ignorant of modern economic realities.

I'll take my chances with capitalism because with capitalism at least I have a chance. With socialism I have no chance at all.

[BartSimpson]

romanP romanP:

If you want to think about this philosophically, the best way to be free is to own nothing. Are you truly free if you own property that you have to maintain and pay taxes for?

I oppose property taxes and estate taxes in that they prevent people from actually owning anything. Such taxes are a socialist invention and were designed to repress people and control them economically.

If you can never be free from taxation then you can never be free.

I don't mind sales taxes and even income taxes, but taxes on assets are punitive and should be overthrown.

[fifeboy]

Proculation Proculation:

Let me just ask you something, think at this in a philosophical way: Can you you achieve freedom without having private ownership ?

Any private ownership? Or some private ownership, or a mixed economy? Complete private ownership? That question needs to be more clearly stated. So on one end of this scale, I couldn't own the kleenex I blow my nose with and on the other end, someone owns everything, including the street I drive to work on? What do you mean?

[OPP]

Proculation Proculation:

Let me just ask you something, think at this in a philosophical way: Can you you achieve freedom without having private ownership ?

We can't all own and controle the resources within our respective countries borders. The game is rigged, the table is slanted and the elite is of at a headsstart that would take you or me more than a lifetime to even try to catch up.
In the end it's those who already have the capital that sets the rules. We all like to belive that anyone has a chance for power and wealth but It's simply not true.

[Proculation]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

But the bottom line is that in the modern economy if someone else is wealthy that has no effect on my opportunity to become wealthy. We no longer live in zero sum economies so the old adage that rich people became wealthy at the expense of others is simply not true anymore and it is only uttered by those who are ignorant of modern economic realities.

More people have to understand that. ECONOMY IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME.
If it was, with the exponential growth of the population we should not even afford to be able to live in a cave.

[Proculation]

fifeboy fifeboy:

Proculation Proculation:

Let me just ask you something, think at this in a philosophical way: Can you you achieve freedom without having private ownership ?

Any private ownership? Or some private ownership, or a mixed economy? Complete private ownership? That question needs to be more clearly stated. So on one end of this scale, I couldn't own the kleenex I blow my nose with and on the other end, someone owns everything, including the street I drive to work on? What do you mean?

I mean proprity rights.
Without them, you can't be 'free' since you do not own what you have(and/or make).

[Scape]

romanP romanP:

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

Indeed.

Thus proving my point, you haven't got a fucking clue in your head because you're willfully ignorant and a bigot, just like Rush Limbaugh. You don't know what it means to dehumanise, you make things up, and you have no real interest in knowing anyway.

Oh SNAP! Tell him what you really think Roman.

[Proculation]

OPP OPP:

Proculation Proculation:

Let me just ask you something, think at this in a philosophical way: Can you you achieve freedom without having private ownership ?

We can't all own and controle the resources within our respective countries borders. The game is rigged, the table is slanted and the elite is of at a headsstart that would take you or me more than a lifetime to even try to catch up.
In the end it's those who already have the capital that sets the rules. We all like to belive that anyone has a chance for power and wealth but It's simply not true.

Glad you come with that. That's a fallacy of Marx. What Marx did was to analyze how the economy was working in the 1800s. The problem: it was not a free economy. The 'capital' was owned by some people but it was like that because they were Lords (in Britain) or things like that.

Now that the economy has became more free, those theories do not stand anymore. There are a lot of examples of people owning almost nothing and becoming extremely rich.

[Scape]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Scape Scape:

But you are rearranging chairs on the titanic at that point Bart, you are not addressing root cause.

I am. I'm saying that as well-meaning as the CRA was it needs to be repealed and the banks need to return to giving out loans based on people qualifying with sound credit scores and with loan-to-values of 90% or less.

Bart, wages have not increased in a meaningful way since the 1990's. Even if the banks wanted to lend they couldn't because the risk is too high. It's a central reason why there is zero spending is because everyone was supporting the economy on credit and this crisis has cut the credit supply. Thus the government had to step in to provide stimulus to fill a $2 trillion dollar hole in the economy otherwise the whole economy would implode.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

romanP romanP:

If you want to think about this philosophically, the best way to be free is to own nothing. Are you truly free if you own property that you have to maintain and pay taxes for?

I oppose property taxes and estate taxes in that they prevent people from actually owning anything. Such taxes are a socialist invention and were designed to repress people and control them economically.

So, you're oppressed and controlled by having maintained roads, police, hospitals, public schools, a local fire department, drug abuse counselling, public transportation, etc, etc?

$1:

If you can never be free from taxation then you can never be free.

Then don't own property. Owning property isn't just some selfish undertaking where you get what you want and that's the end of it, it's a social contract. You can either contribute to the society you live in or don't.

$1:

I don't mind sales taxes and even income taxes, but taxes on assets are punitive and should be overthrown.

Technically, a sales tax is a tax on an asset, as is income tax. Things like food, furniture, and clothes are all important assets, and while they may not be considered such by your bank or your insurance company, you may find it rather difficult to live without at least food, clothing, and the income to pay for them.

Those taxes don't just go into a magical hole in the ground and do nothing, they provide you with the services of a modern functioning society.