[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

$1:

You'll also note that my data comes from many different years over and over and in fact some sites span decades

Nope. Each time you show a chart showing one type of tax and one year. I've shown you the compulation and you call it 'bias sample'. You're a desperate clinger who just can't accept the truth.

Thats because the OECD itself disagrees and you continually quote a single study by a known right wing biased group.

I have shown over and over and over through many sites and many sources that Canada has had middle of the pack income taxes, sales taxes, corporate taxes and from many years and all of these years.

http://www.worldtaxpayers.org/statpres.htm

This site compares decades and it compares marginal tax rates, sales taxes, and purchasing power. All of it defeats your assertion that Canadians are taxed more then most people on earth.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Thats because the OECD itself disagrees and you continually quote a single study by a known right wing biased group.

:lol: wot a tard. No it's not. It was produced by the OECD not anyone else. You can only show one tax and one year. I've shown you thirty years and all taxes FROM THE VERY SAME SOURCE and you feebly try and claim it doesn't count because it's simply reproduced on the Frazer institute site. So what?

If I find the same chart form OECD itself are you going to shut up? I doubt it. You'll just squirm into some other bullshit arguement. One more time and forver until you get it through your thick skull:

$1:

Table 8.2: Percentage Change in Taxes From 1965 to 1996

Total change (Percentage)
Change by tax type (Percentage)

Profit and Income
Social Security
Property
Goods and Services

United States 17.3 15.4 118.8 -20.5 10.9
Japan 55.2 30.0 160.0 113.3 8.3
United Kingdom 18.4 16.8 31.9 13.6 25.7
Canada 42.1 74.0 328.6 2.7 13.3 <--- More than most on earth.
OECD average 45.0 47.3 104.2 0.0 23.7 <--- This is the middle Derby, accept it.OECD data, Derby, not bias sample.

Source: OECD, Revenue Statistics, 19651997, 1998.

link

[DerbyX]

You keep posting it yet even the OECD says we are taxed at the average level. Every data point I have shown shows that Canada is middle of the pack and has been pretty much all along.

Your data is frankly BS and contradicted by a mountain of other data.

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

You keep posting it yet even the OECD says we are taxed at the average level. Every data point I have shown shows that Canada is middle of the pack and has been pretty much all along.

Your data is frankly BS and contradicted by a mountain of other data.

Well the thing with the OECD is that it only takes into account the basic Federal taxation. It doesn't all ways (but some times it does) look at provincial taxation, municipal taxation and service charges nor does it look at other forms of tax such as capital gains tax, gasoline taxes, sin taxes and various other little ways the government gets ya.

But you are correct to say that on a federal level we lay some where in the middle range when it comes to taxation as compared to other countries.

[Akhenaten]

DerbyX DerbyX:

You keep posting it yet even the OECD says we are taxed at the average level. Every data point I have shown shows that Canada is middle of the pack and has been pretty much all along.

Your data is frankly BS and contradicted by a mountain of other data.

Nope. It's not BS and you have no reason to say that except to try and save face. You post one year and one type of tax each time and that's called cherry picking. I posted the compulation.
It's not bullshit.
It's not bias.
It's not any different than the sources you point to except that it doesn't say what you want it to. No 'mountain of data' has been presented by you, just little one-year charts showing one tax.

You keep calling it bias and BS even though you haven't the remotest reason to do that except that you don't like what it says. Too bad. You're a child that needs to learn humilty before you'll ever be an adult. One more time:

$1:

Table 8.2: Percentage Change in Taxes From 1965 to 1996

Total change (Percentage)
Change by tax type (Percentage)

Profit and Income
Social Security
Property
Goods and Services

United States 17.3 15.4 118.8 -20.5 10.9
Japan 55.2 30.0 160.0 113.3 8.3
United Kingdom 18.4 16.8 31.9 13.6 25.7
Canada 42.1 74.0 328.6 2.7 13.3 <--- More than most on earth.
OECD average 45.0 47.3 104.2 0.0 23.7 <--- This is the middle Derby, accept it.OECD data, Derby, not bias sample.

Source: OECD, Revenue Statistics, 19651997, 1998.

link

[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

If I find the same chart form OECD itself are you going to shut up? I doubt it. You'll just squirm into some other bullshit arguement. One more time and forver until you get it through your thick skull:

[quote]Table 8.2: Percentage Change in Taxes From 1965 to 1996

Your data genius is % change not actual tax rates.

All it shows is how much our taxes have increased in comparison. Seeing as that data doesn't prove we have been paying more taxes all along just that we went from lower taxes then other countries to higher taxes in a shorter period.

That in now way proves your assertion we are and have been paying higher taxes then most.

Christ even the chart shown on your link puts us squarely in the middle.

Table 8.1: International Tax Comparisons, 1996 A single year but they included it for a reason and once again we are in the middle and below the OECD average. Considering your continued post shows % tax increase and that Canada was still below the OECD average (and continues to be) I'd say you defeated your own argument.

Did you even factor in this genius?

Table 8.4: Composition of Total Government Spending, 1966 and 1995

Did you relate taxes to increased services, services we get free that others pay for which isn't accounted for in taxes? Nope.

http://www.worldtaxpayers.org/statpurc.htm

I think that take home pay after taxes is a damn good stat and I don't think they lucked out and picked the one year Canada did really well especially if it was 1998 the peak of the Liberal years. I've posted enough data showing Canada with a median VAT/sales tax to show that our take home pay isn't being eaten away by sales taxes any more then most other countries.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

DerbyX DerbyX:

You keep posting it yet even the OECD says we are taxed at the average level. Every data point I have shown shows that Canada is middle of the pack and has been pretty much all along.

Your data is frankly BS and contradicted by a mountain of other data.

Well the thing with the OECD is that it only takes into account the basic Federal taxation. It doesn't all ways (but some times it does) look at provincial taxation, municipal taxation and service charges nor does it look at other forms of tax such as capital gains tax, gasoline taxes, sin taxes and various other little ways the government gets ya.

But you are correct to say that on a federal level we lay some where in the middle range when it comes to taxation as compared to other countries.

Thats true but I've posted data concerning VAT/sales taxes from around the world as well. We aren't that high up.

Corporate tax is another one. http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/08 ... _world.php

Here, the U.S. is shockingly high -- even compared to Sweden and Italy. Although it's not a totally clear rule, it looks like most countries that have lower personal income and value-added taxes make up for it in corporate taxes. And then there's Switzerland, the outlier and ideal place for true tax haters.

If we want to also include all the little things we need to also include the fees other people pay in other countries (like health insurance or user fees) for things our taxes pay for right?

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

If we want to also include all the little things we need to also include the fees other people pay in other countries (like health insurance or user fees) for things our taxes pay for right?

Ya that would be totally fair to say that health insurance should be factored in particullarly in the US.

One thing though, I would agree is that we're average with most other countries, on the high end of the average but aerage non the less. In fact I was quite surprised when I started comparing us with the likes of Japan, Sweden and Britain but I would also say we are getting pretty close to being maxed out and that to tax us further would undoubtedly cut into our quality of life and would ultimately hurt many people which in turn would have adverse affects on our economy. I all ready know you see it differently because we've debated this before but I don't personally believe now is the time to raise taxes.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Your data genius is % change not actual tax rates.

(sigh) ok. It's supposed to show the increase over the years when we were lready high up there but ok, the one I presented before that one was only one year and you rejected it on that basis then when on to present data for one tax over one year over and over again. So back to square one, and one year, ALL TAXES INCLUDED:

$1:

Table 8.1: International Tax Comparisons, 1996

Total tax as a percent of GDP
Taxes as a percent of total taxes

Income and Profits
Social Security
Property
Goods and Services
Other

United States 28.5 47.2 24.7 11.0 17.2 0.0
Japan 28.4 36.6 36.5 11.3 15.4 0.2
United Kingdom 36.0 36.8 17.3 10.6 35.2 0.1
Canada 36.8 47.3 16.3 10.4 24.9 1.1 <--- Us.
OECD average 37.7 35.3 25.1 5.4 32.5 1.7 <--- the middle
Germany 38.1 28.4 40.6 3.0 27.9 0.1
Italy 43.2 34.4 34.2 5.4 25.9 0.1
France 45.7 18.0 43.1 5.1 27.3 6.5
Sweden 52.0 41.0 29.8 3.8 22.8 2.6
Source: OECD, Revenue Statistics, 1965-1997, 1998.

Still in the top 4. Still well above the average.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

DerbyX DerbyX:

If we want to also include all the little things we need to also include the fees other people pay in other countries (like health insurance or user fees) for things our taxes pay for right?

Ya that would be totally fair to say that health insurance should be factored in particullarly in the US.

One thing though, I would agree is that we're average with most other countries, on the high end of the average but aerage non the less. In fact I was quite surprised when I started comparing us with the likes of Japan, Sweden and Britain but I would also say we are getting pretty close to being maxed out and that to tax us further would undoubtedly cut into our quality of life and would ultimately hurt many people which in turn would have adverse affects on our economy. I all ready know you see it differently because we've debated this before but I don't personally believe now is the time to raise taxes.

OK. You run a business in Canada so you have professional knowledge of the business end. Have you lived in other countries before? To be honest it wasn't until I lived in the UK that I understood we weren't paying higher taxes then everybody unfairly. 17.5% VAT is much higher then 5% GST + (x%)PST. What they took from me per paycheck (PAYE tax (pay as you earn)) was far higher then what I paid in Canada. In Australia I paid 39.5% income tax. Australia had yet to bring in its version of the GST so all taxes were added on before the consumer price (a method I prefer actually) but it was there. Its hard to gauge all the hidden fees and taxes when you live and work as a backpacker of course but I think that income tax is a very good indicator.

Proculation said much the same thing that we were at max tax levels although I think he also mentioned the laffer curve and suggested the government would garner more revenue with less taxes.

Personally we could have a lot lower taxes but then we could have a lot fewer services as well. I know the bulk of the vocal cons on her post about how bad the Liberals have been for the military and that they want stronger one but then they also say we pay too much in taxes. I can't ever get a straight and honest answer of where they think that money will come from.

Ditto the justice system. People want more cops to combat gang violence and more and longer jail sentences but that means more expensive jails. The people who want this also want lower taxes.

I might agree completely with you on taxes but it would help to know just what services you want the government to provide through tax funds, how strong a military you think we should have, your views on justice, education, health care, etc.

You don't strike me as somebody who thinks the government should provide all of those things yet not charge taxes. You might believe strongly in a larger user fee society to minimize taxes.

[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

(sigh) ok. It's supposed to show the increase over the years when we were lready high up there but ok, the one I presented before that one was only one year and you rejected it on that basis then when on to present data for one tax over one year over and over again. So back to square one, and one year, ALL TAXES INCLUDED:

So after all that you didn't even realize you what you were posted. I'm too tired to bitch and too happy my car repair bill was much lower then anticipated. Suffice to say I didn't see that distinction until recently either.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

$1:

Table 8.1: International Tax Comparisons, 1996

Total tax as a percent of GDP
Taxes as a percent of total taxes

Income and Profits
Social Security
Property
Goods and Services
Other

United States 28.5 47.2 24.7 11.0 17.2 0.0
Japan 28.4 36.6 36.5 11.3 15.4 0.2
United Kingdom 36.0 36.8 17.3 10.6 35.2 0.1
Canada 36.8 47.3 16.3 10.4 24.9 1.1 <--- Us.
OECD average 37.7 35.3 25.1 5.4 32.5 1.7 <--- the middle
Germany 38.1 28.4 40.6 3.0 27.9 0.1
Italy 43.2 34.4 34.2 5.4 25.9 0.1
France 45.7 18.0 43.1 5.1 27.3 6.5
Sweden 52.0 41.0 29.8 3.8 22.8 2.6
Source: OECD, Revenue Statistics, 1965-1997, 1998.

Still in the top 4. Still well above the average.

First off, you are now using a single data point and your analysis is flawed. I quoted that table and it shows us below the average. In fact I have posted data points from 96,98,2003,2005,2007,2008 from income tax and VAT/sales tax categories and they have all continually shown us middle of the pack. Even if our sales tax was slightly higher, income tax is a bigger factor.

In addition since you know realize that your data was attempting to show that taxes in Canada increased at a greater rate for the past 40 years then other countries and since we are still around average that for the earlier part of those 40 years we must have been paying far less.

Regardless, now that you understand your only data point was not actually showing direct tax rates for the past 40 years you should concede that you were rather hasty in saying Canadians are taxed more heavily then most every one on earth. I'm sure if we didn't have a history like we do you wouldn't have said it as a dig at my party of choice nor defended the point so virulently when I challenged it.

Have a good weekend.

[Dayseed]

Sorry to leap into the middle of this argument between Derby and Ahkenaten, but I think that OECD data from 1966 to 2006 plus initial data from early 2007, given room for interpretation of either PAYE, VAT or GST down-percentages, despite the usual chest-beating from the Frasier Institute, clearly shows that Balsillie should get the Coyotes and put them in Hamilton.

[DerbyX]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Sorry to leap into the middle of this argument between Derby and Ahkenaten, but I think that OECD data from 1966 to 2006 plus initial data from early 2007, given room for interpretation of either PAYE, VAT or GST down-percentages, despite the usual chest-beating from the Frasier Institute, clearly shows that Balsillie should get the Coyotes and put them in Hamilton.

Provided he can also get the team members part time jobs at the GM plant though.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

So after all that you didn't even realize you what you were posted.

Yep. I can admit it. I made a big ol' brain fart. This is more than I've seen you generally admit though.

$1:

Suffice to say I didn't see that distinction until recently either.

Yes I'm glad to see you admit that. Until that point you dismissed it out of hand calling it bias. but whatever. You admitted that already and that alone changes my view of you a little.

$1:

you should concede that you were rather hasty in saying Canadians are taxed more heavily then most every one on earth

Perhaps. It has made me reconsider but not abandon the idea. Naturally I could be wrong, I just don't think I am.

$1:

I'm sure if we didn't have a history like we do you wouldn't have said it as a dig at my party of choice nor defended the point so virulently when I challenged it.

Maybe. Maybe I just would've stopped sooner. I didn't say it as a dig though. I was a little flabergasted that you'd use the "Liberal Party has been in power for 75 years" as a statement to prove their worth. It really doesn't. All that says is we've hardly had a chance to see other parties give it a decent shot. Agree?

$1:

Have a good weekend.

Is there any other kind? You too Derby.

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

DerbyX DerbyX:

If we want to also include all the little things we need to also include the fees other people pay in other countries (like health insurance or user fees) for things our taxes pay for right?

Ya that would be totally fair to say that health insurance should be factored in particullarly in the US.

One thing though, I would agree is that we're average with most other countries, on the high end of the average but average non the less. In fact I was quite surprised when I started comparing us with the likes of Japan, Sweden and Britain but I would also say we are getting pretty close to being maxed out and that to tax us further would undoubtedly cut into our quality of life and would ultimately hurt many people which in turn would have adverse affects on our economy. I all ready know you see it differently because we've debated this before but I don't personally believe now is the time to raise taxes.

OK. You run a business in Canada so you have professional knowledge of the business end. Have you lived in other countries before? To be honest it wasn't until I lived in the UK that I understood we weren't paying higher taxes then everybody unfairly. 17.5% VAT is much higher then 5% GST + (x%)PST. What they took from me per paycheck (PAYE tax (pay as you earn)) was far higher then what I paid in Canada. In Australia I paid 39.5% income tax. Australia had yet to bring in its version of the GST so all taxes were added on before the consumer price (a method I prefer actually) but it was there. Its hard to gauge all the hidden fees and taxes when you live and work as a backpacker of course but I think that income tax is a very good indicator.

Well to start off I should point out that I was agreeing with you. We're on the higher end of the average but we're still not as bad off as other nations. One thing I would add though is you need to look at everything as a whole not just income tax and sales taxes alone. You also need to take into account average income levels, cost of living, the price of consumer goods and so forth. By saying that I'm actually strengthening your argument because I think most people will find that income in most other countries is lower verses the cost of living. The only other nation that stands out in my mind that would be the exception to that would be the US.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Proculation said much the same thing that we were at max tax levels although I think he also mentioned the laffer curve and suggested the government would garner more revenue with less taxes.

Personally we could have a lot lower taxes but then we could have a lot fewer services as well. I know the bulk of the vocal cons on her post about how bad the Liberals have been for the military and that they want stronger one but then they also say we pay too much in taxes. I can't ever get a straight and honest answer of where they think that money will come from.

Ditto the justice system. People want more cops to combat gang violence and more and longer jail sentences but that means more expensive jails. The people who want this also want lower taxes.

I might agree completely with you on taxes but it would help to know just what services you want the government to provide through tax funds, how strong a military you think we should have, your views on justice, education, health care, etc.

You don't strike me as somebody who thinks the government should provide all of those things yet not charge taxes. You might believe strongly in a larger user fee society to minimize taxes.

Man, what is with you and long posts . I'll just sum this up because I'm off to baptize the kids and I'm in the middle of house hunting (a misery which I wouldn't wish upon any person). Be you Liberal or Conservative I think we can all agree there are efficiencies that can be found within the existing system. Status for Women Canada was the best recent example I can think of. They were spending more money on administration then what they were giving out to those they were funding. They had an office and full staff in every province (sometimes more than one as was the case in Alberta), which was a luxury which no other government department enjoyed at that time.

At the end of the day my opinion has and all ways will be; look for ways to save and cut the fat before you introduce new taxes or raise the existing ones. It's as simple as that. Only after you have done that should you look at raising taxes but it should be mandatory to look for ways maximize what you're all ready getting before going to the people and asking for more.