[Brenda]

lily lily:

Is "this just isn't a good time for me to have a baby" a need?

Is that the only reason women abort?

Please,now you are generalizing, and I thought you were better than that.

[DerbyX]

ridenrain ridenrain:

What an apauling little read that whole thing was.
Derby: For christs sakes, you do come off a a snotty git, waving around you're "calling to save mankind" and all. The forays into personal attacks are really belittling and don't sound like an educated opinion, but that of a little man, full of his own importance.

I think the question of the rights of abortion are aside of this topic. If the qualifications are people who were persecuted for standing up for what they believed was right then we better put Robert Latimer on the list too.

This selection was made with the purpose of dividing Canadians, and that's why it stinks of a Liberal smear.

Look whos talking.

On one thread you crow about Canadas heroic involment in afghanistan as a great humanitarian effort while you denigrate the core belief of the very people you say will look at Canada as its greatest friend. Then you switch gears in Africa and state we should cut off all aid, all of which is humanitarian because some dictator is doing the very same thing you accuse the taliban of.

Prior to safe medical abortions women were killing themselves to obtain abortions, which BTW killed the unborn fetus as well as any other child they may have had. Morgentaller saw that Canadian women wanted the freedom to choose for themselves and went to jail to help insure that they got it.

Thats why he is getting the OoC. That the issues is polarizing isn't in dispute. So was granting women the right to vote, drive or be considered persons under the law. The people who fought for those rights have so been honoured also.

You are just so wrapped up in your hatred of the Liberals that you can't even see or imagine how this could ever be anything but a Liberal smear.

$1:

Of the main federal parties, the Bloc Québécois and New Democratic Party are staunchly pro-choice while the Liberal Party of Canada and Conservative Party of Canada have both pro-choice and pro-life members (and neither party has an official position on abortion). Traditionally, more Liberal members are pro-choice than pro-life, and more Conservative members are pro-life than pro-choice. The ambiguity in the official stances of these two main parties has occasionally created disputes within the parties.

The recently-formed Conservative Party has, for instance, had to wrestle with combining the conflicting social policies of its two predecessor parties, the moderate Progressive Conservative Party of Canada and the more right-wing Canadian Alliance. Many socially conservative Alliance supporters were angered at the prospect of pro-choice Belinda Stronach winning the leadership election in early 2004, while some Conservatives objected to the new party's perceived openness to pro-life legislation during the 2004 federal election. In the March 2005 policy convention, in a narrow vote, the party voted to not introduce legislation on the subject of abortion. (Members can still introduce private members bills on the issue, which are free votes)

The Liberal Party, on the other hand, has a pro-life caucus which, while not publicly fighting to change party policy, has created a degree of uncertainty in how the party would handle the issue were it to be brought up in Parliament. Liberal MP Paul Steckle introduced in June 2006 a bill[3] that if passed, would make abortion after 20 weeks gestation a criminal act. The bill has not been acted on since its introduction.

Although the issue of abortion rights has popped up from time to time in Federal elections as a wedge issue, the issue is consistently rated as a low priority for most Canadians. The Christian Heritage Party of Canada claims to be Canada's only stated pro-life federal political party, but has never had a member elected to parliament.

The only people who are truly dividing the country are you crybaby cons whining about how if everybody doesn't vote for your party then you are seperating.

You think you are so perfect in your politics that you can't even conceive how your political views aren't somehow the epitome of what Canadians should strive for.

Get over yourself.

[Brenda]

lily lily:

Brenda Brenda:

lily lily:

Is "this just isn't a good time for me to have a baby" a need?

Is that the only reason women abort?

Please,now you are generalizing, and I thought you were better than that.

All right then, Brenda. Perhaps you'll enlighten us with why women really ARE getting abortions. What was the number... 43 abortions per 100 live births. How many of those are the result of a sexual assault? How many are because the life of the mom or baby is in danger?

How many are just a matter of convenience?

I don't think it is up to you OR to me to decide for another person what is convenience or not.

So get off your high horse, and listen to what I said. In ALLLL those abortion threads.

Rules, regulations, psychologists, waiting periods, time limits, CHOICE.

[Brenda]

lily lily:

I believe that's what's known as a *dodge*.

Why?
It is not up to me or to you.


When I was pregnant with my first one, 2 of my friends had an abortion. One I could totally understand, one I was very pissed about. The one I was pissed about was the "inconvenient timing" one. The other one was for complete other reasons, which made it, imo, for her, a good decision. She had herself sterilized in the same treatment so it can't happen again.

It is just not easy, and not up to me or to you to decide what is convenient or not.
I didn't come up with the numbers however, and I already said earlier, that they shock me, and I find it unacceptable.

[hurley_108]

lily lily:

What was the number... 43 abortions per 100 live births.

28.3 in 2005 and falling, continuing a trend started in 2002. Alberta, conservative as it is, has the third highest rate (25.8) of the provinces, after Quebec (38.3) and BC (35.4). Ontario (25.1) is not far behind Alberta. PEI has the lowest rate, at 9.4. The Yukon was the only territory with rates in 2005, at 43.8.

$1:

How many of those are the result of a sexual assault? How many are because the life of the mom or baby is in danger?

How many are just a matter of convenience?

I don't think anyone knows. But looking at the 10 provinces, the rates seem to be higher where people are better off, so I think the impact of a child on one's career must be a big factor in many decisions. For this and other reasons, perhaps parental EI benefits should be improved.

Edit: turned off smilies. Stupid sunglasses smilie...

[mtbr]

DerbyX DerbyX:

The only people who are truly dividing the country are you crybaby cons whining about how if everybody doesn't vote for your party then you are seperating.

You think you are so perfect in your politics that you can't even conceive how your political views aren't somehow the epitome of what Canadians should strive for.

Get over yourself.

yeah damnit RR where's your Canadian spirit the people of the west are supposed to take it up the ass for the good of the east, not very Canadian of you to think otherwise.

[Brenda]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

lily lily:

What was the number... 43 abortions per 100 live births.

28.3 in 2005 and falling, continuing a trend started in 2002. Alberta, conservative as it is, has the third highest rate (25. of the provinces, after Quebec (38.3) and BC (35.4). Ontario (25.1) is not far behind Alberta. PEI has the lowest rate, at 9.4. The Yukon was the only territory with rates in 2005, at 43.8.

$1:

How many of those are the result of a sexual assault? How many are because the life of the mom or baby is in danger?

How many are just a matter of convenience?

I don't think anyone knows. But looking at the 10 provinces, the rates seem to be higher where people are better off, so I think the impact of a child on one's career must be a big factor in many decisions. For this and other reasons, perhaps parental EI benefits should be improved.

oooohhhhh... that is different

[mtbr]

Abortion activist says he deserves appointment to Order of Canada
Canwest News Service
Published: Wednesday, July 02, 2008

TORONTO - Controversial abortion activist Dr. Henry Morgentaler, who was named a member of the Order of Canada this week, said Wednesday he deserves the recognition for helping Canadian women be safe.

"The work I've done over the years and the sacrifices and the sentence of imprisonment that I have suffered, I think that finally now the government has recognized my contribution to Canadian women and I am very proud of it," Morgentaler, 85, told a news conference in Toronto.

The prestigious appointment Tuesday refuelled the abortion debate and was slammed by one of Canada's top Catholics as debasing the order.
Almost single-handedly, Dr. Henry Morgentaler pushed abortion rights onto the national agenda when he opened an illegal abortion clinic in Montreal in 1969. At one point, he was jailed for 10 months when a lower court acquittal was overturned by a higher court.
Almost single-handedly, Dr. Henry Morgentaler pushed abortion rights onto the national agenda when he opened an illegal abortion clinic in Montreal in 1969. At one point, he was jailed for 10 months when a lower court acquittal was overturned by a higher court.

Morgentaler said he wasn't shocked that the Catholic Church was so opposed to him receiving the distinction.

"I'm surprised it is not more violent than it is," he said. "They are adamantly opposed to the right to safe abortion."

On Tuesday, Archbishop Thomas Collins said Canada's highest honour had "been debased" and called for the bestowal to be revoked.

However, Morgentaler said he was proud of his appointment and said that he had worked tirelessly to help women have access to safe procedures.

"The safety and health of women has been preserved and I am very happy about that," he said.

Almost single-handedly, Morgentaler pushed abortion rights onto the national agenda when he opened an illegal abortion clinic in Montreal in 1969. At one point, he was jailed for 10 months when a lower court acquittal was overturned by a higher court.

The issue culminated in a landmark ruling in January 1988, in which the Supreme Court struck down anti-abortion provisions of the Criminal Code on the grounds they violate a woman's constitutional right to "security of person."

The most recent effort to have Morgentaler named to the Order of Canada was put forward by the Ontario Coalition for Abortion Clinics, spearheaded by Carolyn Egan.

It was one of at least three attempts over the years.

[Brenda]

lily lily:

How so, Brenda?

28.5 % or 43%
You really need to ask that?

[hurley_108]

Another interesting table: rate of abortion per 100 live births by age group. The rate is 240.7 for the under 15 group. The absolute number of abortions for under 15s was only 284 (compared with tens of thousands for some older groups), but that's a group that makes it difficult to argue for a complete ban on abortion. Having a kid at 15 is more than just an "inconvenience." Across the country, 14 year olds (15 year-olds would be counted in the 15-19 group) are not deemed responsible enough to drive a car alone, so the personal responsibility argument is also weak from the start. Having a kid at 14 or younger is dangerous to the mother physically, and educationally.

Just some more food for thought...

[Brenda]

lily lily:

Brenda Brenda:

lily lily:

How so, Brenda?

28.5 % or 43%
You really need to ask that?

They're not percentages.

The numbers are too high, IMO, whichever they are.

What I was actually wondering about was the you added. 28.5 or 43.... these numbers amuse you?

Oh please, could you stop nitpicking now?

I already said I think the numbers are too high.

But I am glad to see that they are not as high as AR stated, and attacked us with.

[hurley_108]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

43 abortions per 100 live births in Canada

http://www40.statcan.ca/cgi-bin/getcans ... =1&sortf=6

I have no doubt that many of those abortions are due to narcissistic reasons.

I suppose you could round the Quebec figure from 2002 to 43, but that's not quite the same thing, is it? Did you even look at the table, or is your vision as selective as your memory?

[romanP]

lily lily:

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, Derby, it won't change the fact that he did NOT do "every Canadian women(sic) a service".

He did, whether every Canadian woman wants to acknowledge it or not. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion, so you cannot claim that he did NOT do anyone a service.

[romanP]

lily lily:

$1:

Yes you are. You are acting like a giant hypocrite. You are opposed to abortion and are allowing your personal feelings to interfere with your judgement which is why you can't accept that he was doign what he felt was right.

Faulty logic, Derby.

You claimed that Morgentaler did a service to every Canadian woman because even if we were against abortion, should we ever change our mind, it would be available to us.

Why would a woman change her mind, do you suppose?

Who cares why? That's not the point. The point is that the option is there, should you need it.

[Wally_Sconce]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

43 abortions per 100 live births in Canada

http://www40.statcan.ca/cgi-bin/getcans ... =1&sortf=6

I have no doubt that many of those abortions are due to narcissistic reasons.

I suppose you could round the Quebec figure from 2002 to 43, but that's not quite the same thing, is it? Did you even look at the table, or is your vision as selective as your memory?

my mistake

I was going by memory, and I pasted a bookmark.

The best I can figure, I must have figure that the bottom row would be a total or an average.