[sandorski]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

sandorski sandorski:

Certainly they had it as well, but they are not the only ones.

So you are saying that our desire to kill those who seek to attack our civilian populations is equally evil to the actions committed by those who attacked civilians in France?

No. I'm saying that to punish a whole group of people for the actions of a few is stupid and equally evil.

[Canadian_Mind]

andyt andyt:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

If all else fails, it most certainly will. Nukes have a habit of effecting calm upon the areas they fall.

You're going to have to nuke an awful lot of terrain before things calm down. That many nukes will calm us down too with the fallout. That is assuming Russia and China just stand by while we go throwing nukes around a lot of the planet. Pakistan for instance. It will also be pretty hard on the Israelis - having nukes go off in their neighborhood.

You and others here are just engaging in some mental masturbation. Or as I said before, armchair psychopathy.

Here is a humorous thought that bounces around in my head:

Global warming and human overpopulation are considered the greatest threats to life on earth.

Nukes significantly reduce population and induce "winter," which really is just another way of saying lower than average global temperatures.

So really, Nukes are the solution, not the problem.

Doesn't mean I advocate nuking the planet for the sake of population control or to solve global warming though. I just find it funny that one problem would solve another.


As to ISIS specifically, I'd hope we'd only have to drop one bomb on Raqqah. As you stated, nukes en-mass would cause significant problems. The goals of Nuking Raqqah would first be to kill the leadership and administration of ISIS. You wont get all of it, but hopefully you get enough that the organisation is thrown into chaos. The second is to demonstrate the resolve to use nuclear weapons indiscriminately and instill such fear of destruction that the remnants of ISIS largely gives up. Whatever is left can be mopped up by the Kurds and if neccisary our respective special forces.

[Canadian_Mind]

sandorski sandorski:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

sandorski sandorski:

Certainly they had it as well, but they are not the only ones.

So you are saying that our desire to kill those who seek to attack our civilian populations is equally evil to the actions committed by those who attacked civilians in France?

No. I'm saying that to punish a whole group of people for the actions of a few is stupid and equally evil.

Big difference between fully committing to a war on ISIS and burning the local mosque.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

andyt andyt:

So, are we going to institute the draft? What was the cost to the US for the failed Iraq II mess in lives and treasure? How much more will it cost this time, fighting an enemy that comes and disappears? How long do you think it will take to occupy the region with very strict controls until groups like ISIS disappear? What about all the other jihadi groups in the world that are not in Syria or Iraq? What will they do while all our effort is expended in those two countries? What will Turkey do as we hand over large portions of Iraq and Syria to the Kurds? How much help will southern Iraq/Iran be, how much hindrance. What will Russia do? Are we going to let them keep Assad in power, maybe give them Ukraine to keep them onside? And so on...

But number one, are we really ready to stay on a war footing for likely decades, keep sending our people over there to die, way ramp up our military budget?

ISIS isn't a country, it's an ideology that has spread it's cancer around the world. I doubt it can be defeated by conventional military means. If we had some solid allies in the region to help them gain power and keep the region friendly toward us, that would be one thing, but we don't. Even the Kurds are producing ISIS fighters. There seem to be few good options, or we would have done them by now. Sometimes an elephant can stomp around all it wants, but can't stop the vermin biting at it's feet.

We need a better strategy in the West in dealing with Muslims living among us. Canada is actually an example here because we've had very little of the shit they have in Europe, and I think most Muslims living here would support Canada rather than the jihadists if we get the same shit here. I guess we do have to have a clear approach towards the Muslims living here. If you are with us, great, welcome, show it by helping us root out the jihadists. We need to press them much harder on the issue, and if they're not with us, well buh bye. France otoh, has far more work to do. They've allowed ghettos of Muslims to fester, they did not open their doors for Muslims to integrate the way we did. It might be too late for France to change it now, but they have to try. Same with all the other European countries - time to give your Muslims a choice between the carrot and the stick.

Why do you need the draft?

One brigade of troops from any NATO country would annihilate the 20000 fighters ISIS has.

But it doesn't have to come to that.

Instead of a single CF-18 dropping a bomb or two on an artillery battery, we need to send a squadron of B-52s to flatten ISIS fighters any time they mass. By starting out with a huge coordinated strike, it would be easy to wipe out most of their combat power in one go.

After we really flattened them and their troops a couple times, they would likely disperse and then we'd have to send in special forces to deal with them in close. That would no doubt cause casualties, but I'll take JTF2 over punk ass jihadists any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Either way, they would learn not to fuck with the West or we'd kill them all eventually. It might take a couple years, but it would work.

There are other hard line ways too, like tit-for-tat atrocities by hitting them at home too or using nukes and so on. To me, those are methods of last resort.

Either way, the West needs to relearn its baser side (like we had during World War 2) and stop being so soft on our enemies.

As for the naive idea that ideas cannot be dealt with with military force, we did it with slavery and National Socialism, so there is no reason to believe we can't do the same with radical Islam.

It just takes time and a willingness to do so.

So what's keeping the West, ie the US from doing this, if it's such a good idea and easy solution? They actually kind of like ISIS and don't really want to hurt them too much?

Willpower mostly - nobody is willing to turn this:



into this:



If the West deployed sufficient forces, something like that could be done fairly easily. The problem is too many leaders are worried about the backlash such a victory might bring.

[bootlegga]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

WTF? Someone hacked Boots account.

My thoughts as well.

Not at all - I've always been centrist and a bit of a hawk. I'm really a Red Tory, but that option no longer exists in Canada, so I have to choose between the lesser of two evils (Liberal and Conservative).

Besides, the touchy-feely crap hasn't worked so far, so why not try something different?

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Either way, the West needs to relearn its baser side (like we had during World War 2) and stop being so soft on our enemies.

As for the naive idea that ideas cannot be dealt with with military force, we did it with slavery and National Socialism, so there is no reason to believe we can't do the same with radical Islam.

It just takes time and a willingness to do so.

I doubt anyone disputes that. The problem is that it will take the US to lead it and the US leadership comes out of their sewer of a political system. Set Obama and his (alleged) soft peddling aside for a moment. Do we really want to go through another round being led by the types of neo-cons again that did such wonders the last time they were in control. Because just like 9/11 was done by Sunni terrorists backed by Saudi Arabia was responded to by attacking Iraq that had nothing to do with it this thing with the Sunnis in ISIS that are backed by Saudi Arabia can just as quickly met with something as absurd as "you know what would be great? we should attack Iran". This is how dumb it can get because that's how dumb the Bush Admin was, and as bad as the Bushies were they'll all look like MENSA members in comparison to an admin led by these absolute fucking morons like Trump, Carson, Cruz, or any of those other degenerates that are currently riding around in the GOP clown car.

I believe the cause would be just and with appropriate leadership it should be pursued. The problem is that appropriate leadership will not come out of the United States anymore because the perversity of their political system has wrecked their capability to lead. I don't know what the answer is but the only thing that will happen will be Iraq Part Deux, or something even worse, with this kind of crisis in leadership. Give me a suggestion because I can't see any way around this problem anymore.

Agreed, and I honestly don't know who should lead the West.

Maybe this will stiffen the French a bit and they'll step up...or maybe not. Canada certainly can't lead this, given the sad state of our military.

[Thanos]

The cause would be just and an appropriate level of pitlessness is more than called for. But I'll never trust the leadership in the United States ever again, even less so than in 2000 or 2004 with the type of cretins the TeaBircher movement is now barfing out into the scene. I'd almost have to start calling the victory in the Cold War something that happened by accident, luck, or because the Soviets in the end basically ate themselves. With the terrible leadership in Washington DC since LBJ (except maybe Bush The Elder whose limited war against Saddam just to kick him out of Kuwait was waged quite brilliantly) it's actually quite amazing that the Russians didn't end up as the overall winners.

[rickc]

Thanos Thanos:

The cause would be just and an appropriate level of pitlessness is more than called for. But I'll never trust the leadership in the United States ever again, even less so than in 2000 or 2004 with the type of cretins the TeaBircher movement is now barfing out into the scene. I'd almost have to start calling the victory in the Cold War something that happened by accident, luck, or because the Soviets in the end basically ate themselves. With the terrible leadership in Washington DC since LBJ (except maybe Bush The Elder whose limited war against Saddam just to kick him out of Kuwait was waged quite brilliantly) it's actually quite amazing that the Russians didn't end up as the overall winners.

Let me start by saying that I think that it is in very poor taste when this horrific incident is only a day old, and you are using this disgusting incident as a forum to bash the American right wing. The TeaBirchers did not murder anyone in France yesterday. As long as we are going to throw decorum out the window, I'll speak my piece truthfully, without sugar coating it. You state that you will never trust the leadership in the U.S. again. Well to bitch about leadership, one must first be following that leadership. The fact of the matter is that if there is any isis ass kicking to be done, you guys will sit it out. That mammas boy that you just elected will see to that. He has made his intentions very clear. His father turned your armed forces into the laughing stock of the free world. His kid will finish the job. The Rhode Island National Guard will be a more formidable fighting force than your entire country will be able to muster by the time he is through. While other countries will go off to put isis dick in the dirt, your country will be turning into one big Syrian refugee camp. I would not be surprised to see pretty boy volunteer to pick up the slack from the other countries that will inevitably stop the refugees from coming after yesterday. Enjoy your caliphate. I think you need to spend less time worrying about the American right wing, and start worrying more about who you just put in office.

[Thanos]

I'll have to ask what colour the sky is in your world if you think that your right-wing politicians, the ones who created this mess in the first place, can be trusted to lead and bring an end to this situation. I didn't blame the US military or the American people. I blamed the ones that are entirely responsible for it happening in the first place. YOUR OWN military leaders in the Pentagon counselled back in 2002 against deposing Saddam stated plainly that (a) the US didn't have enough manpower to effectively garrison Iraq and provide the necessary security, and (b) that getting rid of Saddam would unleash the religious lunatics that Saddam was suppressing. Those leaders that told Bush and Cheney what they didn't want to hear, and because it didn't fit into the daily sound bites they were dismissed from service. And what's more those people who dissented were proven entirely right over time and YOUR right-wing political leaders were proven to be disasterously wrong.

If you trust these kind of people to lead you again then you'll get entirely what you deserve. You call my country a laughing stock? Look at your own political/business class that does these horrible things on a regular basis, make things around the world entirely worse, and then not even care about the damage they cause because they've made money off of it or because they've gained domestic political advantage over. You want to play salute the flag all over again instead of using your fucking brains for a change? Then to hell with you. You deserve every single Vietnam and Iraq and ISIS that you fucking get if you're deliberately choosing again as a country NOT to think.

[Jabberwalker]

bootlegga bootlegga:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

WTF? Someone hacked Boots account.

My thoughts as well.

Not at all - I've always been centrist and a bit of a hawk. I'm really a Red Tory, but that option no longer exists in Canada, so I have to choose between the lesser of two evils (Liberal and Conservative).

Besides, the touchy-feely crap hasn't worked so far, so why not try something different?

Perhaps, after this it will be the French Foreign Legion leading the way.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Willpower mostly - nobody is willing to turn this:



into this:



If the West deployed sufficient forces, something like that could be done fairly easily. The problem is too many leaders are worried about the backlash such a victory might bring.

I don't buy what you say for a minute. If the Western forces were presented such a target with no civilians in sight, they'd be fighting amongst themselves about who got to do the bombing. I think you are making this out as far easier than it is. Always easy sitting in an armchair.

[andyt]

Paris attacks: 2 of the assailants lived in Brussels

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-shoo ... -1.3319709

$1:

A Belgian official says seven people have been detained in Belgium linked to the Paris attacks that left 129 people dead and more than 300 wounded.

The official, who spoke to The Associated Press in Brussels by phone, said two of the seven attackers who died in Paris on Friday night were French men living in Brussels, one of them in the neighbourhood of St. Jans Molenbeek.

In a separate development, French officials have identified one of the seven assailants responsible for Friday's attacks that killed at least 129 people. He was Omar Ismaïl Mostefai, a French citizen known to police for his ties to Islamist radicals.

The 29-year old, from Courcouronnes, south of Paris, was identified from a severed finger found at the scene of the worst massacre, carried out at the Bataclan concert hall just north of Paris, where 89 people died. Mostefai was one of three men who detonated suicide belts.

Looks like it was mostly locals. ISIS isn't some tightly bunched group we can just bomb the shit out of - they spread their poison throughout the world and let the locals do the dirty work. Obviously there is some sort of support network tho, since they were able to get those Kalashnikovs and grenades.

[Jabberwalker]

The level of synchronization , co-ordination between the group of attackers suggests a "mastermind" planner behind all of this .. some sort of ISIS Bin Laden. It was well enough planned that a very well drilled French security apparatus was briefly overwhelmed. This looks a new and successful terrorist tactic to divide the police resources with simultaneous attacks. It will be very hard to defend against this.

[Jabberwalker]

The level of synchronization , co-ordination between the group of attackers suggests a "mastermind" planner behind all of this .. some sort of ISIS Bin Laden. It was well enough planned that a very well drilled French security apparatus was briefly overwhelmed. This looks a new and successful terrorist tactic to divide the police resources with simultaneous attacks. It will be very hard to defend against this.

[andyt]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

The level of synchronization , co-ordination between the group of attackers suggests a "mastermind" planner behind all of this .. some sort of ISIS Bin Laden. It was well enough planned that a very well drilled French security apparatus was briefly overwhelmed. This looks a new and successful terrorist tactic to divide the police resources with simultaneous attacks. It will be very hard to defend against this.

Nah, they've establish a playbook by now. Doesn't really take much planning to figure out that multiple sites attacked is going to make it hard for the cops. Hell, regular criminals sometimes do that. It also doesn't take much planning when you plan to suicide and go after defenseless targets. Just go and start spraying bullets, blow yourself up when the cops get there. The theater thing probably took a bit of scouting the venue. Hell two of the suicide bombers only managed to kill one innocent each, how effective is that? Even in the theater, it's not as if they planned a long siege, or planned to get away. No, they were just following the established pattern we've seen around the world. As for synchronization, we all have internet time these days, they didn't even have to synchronize their watches. There isn't a security apparatus in the world the could have responded better, since they had no advance warning. That last indicates that this was likely planned on a very local level, with little chatter. So, no Bin Laden needed at all.

What does take some backing is the armaments they had. Kalashnikovs don't seem common place in Europe, nor grenades. The IEDs they probably found out how to make on the internet.

I guess people want to make this a highly sophisticated attack because it's reassuring. If it takes a Bin Laden to plan these attacks, then we can go after the head and kill the snake. No such luck. All it takes is willingness to die, being psychotic with hate, access to the net, and some connections to aquire arms (who knows what scum sold those to them?). There's a lot of people in the world that fit that description, not all of them jihadis. By now this meme is running around the world loose, it doesn't need a base anymore.