[OnTheIce]

Macguyver Macguyver:

It is a shame that those who gave the most to build this country are living in these conditions, and it’s pathetic that we sit on our hands and give as little as possible to ensure their well being in the future of this country. We prance around the world pretending to be good and righteous, but we don't have the common decency to live up to our own obligations to these people and we’d rather pay to see them suffer than pay to help make them productive and healthy citizens in our own country.

Gave the most to build this Country? You've got to be kidding. Give me a break. Tell that to all the white men that went and fought for Canada in WWI and WWII.

Macguyver Macguyver:

And as for the Treaties we signed to account for our occupation of a huge chunk of this country, we promised their children an EDUCATION so that they could compete in the modern world with our kids. Now what have we done? Residential schools and an education where we spend far less on their kids than we do our own. How can you argue that we are in the right by stiffing each Native child’s education a few thousand dollars a year compared to our own?

And how do those kids make it in our world – you want them to move to the city and give their kids opportunity but we’ve given them no tools to succeed!

Top up the funding, give the next generation a shot – if it is the LEAST we can do at least we can keep one promise. Like someone just said about the Somali kids – they know education is the key, if that is true then why are we short changing our aboriginal youth??

Money isn't the solution. That right there is the problem. People like you think we should just keep shovelling money at the problem. You're wrong. Your method of thinking it outdated and ineffective.

Funding only goes so far. If these people take no responsibility and ownership over what's being given to them, we'll never be further ahead.

The best thing we can do for our Native people is to maintain the funding we give them now, but give it to them directly and let them live wherever they choose. Get them off these reserves and into major Cities so they can work and bring their children up right.

[Macguyver]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Gave the most to build this Country? You've got to be kidding. Give me a break. Tell that to all the white men that went and fought for Canada in WWI and WWII.

A few facts for your enlightenment:
1) Aboriginals were not eligable to be drafted, but participated in WW1 and WW2 but vounteered in numbers higher than their population percentage to fight for Canada.
2) When they returned they receved a fraction of the benifits than all the "white men" they fought and died beside.

You will note that vets participating in the war with their Indian brothers have generally viewed them as brave and selfless warriors. Yet for some reason, upon their return they were not given land and pensions and the medical attention that our own grandfathers got.

I don't understand how you can not see the systemic mistreatment of Aboriginal people and why you think a 6 year old in grade 1 on the reserve deserves to have his education underfunded by 25% or more compared to that same child in the city.

And I don't understand how you expect those people to come to the city and compete when we've provided them 75% or less of an education that our neighbours in town...yet we've PROMISED a good portion of those same people the RIGHT to education in exchange for the and which we take trillions of dollars in resources - farming, mining, logging, water and whatever from to build our country.

Doing the same thing, keeping the current funding numbers and hoping that this segment of society will somehow reverse course and become healthy, working taxpayers is not going to help you save money or them improve their lot in life. And it is a national shame that my grandfather fought with a native fellow for this country, yet for some reason the native fellow is less of a person and deserves less than any other man of any other race that fought for our freedom.

Get off your high horse, these people have contributed as much or more to this nation yet we treat them like ... shit. I'm not an apologist, I'm a realist. There have bee so many opportunities for us as Canadians to do the right thing. And like you suggest, we don't.

[BartSimpson]

Natives have the same opportunities as anyone else does yet their culture views them as 'less than genuine' if they succeed in the real world. The natives who manage to make something of themselves are almost always the ones who leave everything behind to make something of themselves.

My friend Gaspar Garcia left his reservation as a young man and adopted a Spanish name in order to better accepted in society. He obtained a Ph.D on his own merits and was a respected member of the Sacramento Unified School District Board of Directors for many years. The vast majority of people had no idea that this well-spoken, nattily dressed, and educated man was a Native American. He told me once that his people on the reservation were like crabs in a bucket and he had to cut off his ties to them.

The crab metaphor is that if a fisherman has a bucket of crabs he doesn't need a lid for it because if one crab tries to get out then the others will grab him and pull him back in.

It's politically incorrect to say this, but FN/NA culture is inferior to the general society and you can't expect anyone from that culture to succeed in society anymore than you could expect some inbread Appalachian white people to be successful in society while remaining 'true' to their culture that wallows in superstition and ignorance.

[Macguyver]

Yes, I believe there is a culture of poverty.

No, I do not believe that their culture needs to be forgotten in order to participate in today's society.

If you look back at the history books you will note that the same white people complaining today were complaining about the competitive advantages the Treaties gave the Indians 125-150 years ago. You will note the successes of the natives when they transitioned to farming. You will also note the regulations put in place to stem the advantage that the Natives had through their treaty allocations in order to placate the new white settlers in Western Canada. You will note also that Native youth sent to industrial schools did very well before the curriculum was changed in the 1850 +/- a few dozen years, again to raise the bar for natives and allow settlers the competitive advantage.

You will also note that natives were unable to hire lawyers to protect their rights, they were not (and are still not) allowed to buy and sell goods, resources, manufactured products from the reserve to the general public. And please read the passages from our government officials stating that the only way to break the bonds between the Natives and their families, culture and communities was to kidnap them young and force them to be little brown white people. If anything their willingness to object to our attempts of assimilation and their bond to their communities and people and culture shows how strong that culture is and no matter what we say or do, besides physically killing them off, they are still going to be here and we have to deal with that.

Now tell me again how their "inferior culture" has anything to do with their lack of success. That is a lazy racist excuse from an ignorant person who does not see that the poverty is epidemic and almost totally a result of systemic barriers put in place since Canada was settled. There is nothing inherently lazy about Natives, how do you think these people survived for millennia in Canada of all god forsaken cold, hot, wet and dry places on earth.

It’s a fucking miracle that these people still exist today based on the bullshit we've put them through. Now that the pendulum is about to swing the other way, we might as well make amends, or like I've said in other posts, we're going to get sued, we're going to pay the legal costs on both sides plus billions and billions in damages for 200 + years of not living up to our promises.

And they will be laughing all the way to the bank. And I don't blame them. Bury your head in the sand, make some excuses for our behaviour and make up some legal mumbo-jumbo why you think we have no obligation to honour our forefathers promises...it’s not going to help.

So what you are all trying to tell me is that you feel OK that we short change Native Children’s education each by $2000-$3000 every year...and that should not affect their ability to compete for university spots and jobs in the city?

[OnTheIce]

Your argument always comes back to dollars and cents. It`s not the simple. You`re a realist, but do you have any experience with Natives either living on or working on a reserve?

People like you that continue to argue dollars and cents are the ones burying your head in the sand. You think money will solve all issues on reserves.

You're wrong.

[Macguyver]

I've been to dozens and dozens of reserves in Canada, probably 75 or so. I have had meetings in person with over 50 chiefs in person. I've worked professionally on 3 different First Nations. Most recently, in 2008, I was hand picked by the Grand Chief of one province to head an econimic political entity, which I turned down to focus on my own business.

And again I ask you: So what you are all trying to tell me is that you feel OK that we short change Native Children’s education each by $2000-$3000 every year...and that should not affect their ability to compete for university spots and jobs in the city?

How come we are short changing these people? Are they not Canadians like the rest of us and do they not deserve to have an education on par with what everyone else gets?

Money may not solve everyone's problems on the reserve, but giving the children a fair shot at getting a decent education will make a difference. How can you object to at least equally funding Native children's primary and secondary education to the same level as the rest of our Canadian children?

[andyt]

Of course we should fund their education equally.

But how will that change the fate of reserves that are in the middle of diddly fuck all? How will they ever become economically self-sustaining? Reserves that are in a good location do very well - The Osoyoos band, the various bands around Vancouver. The Vancouver bands would do even better if their people got off their asses more and took work in Vancouver instead of so many still sitting on their asses. The Osoyoos band, at least, Chief Louis has said you want money you have to go to work, and he has got lot's of work available. Still, with this idea that reserves are 'nations' we're always going to have some problems. If you confine yourself to a small area, instead of the larger country around it, you'll just have way less opportunity. Natives are going to have to accept they have to live like the hated whiteman to get all the goodies they see the whiteman having. Maybe by the time they get around to figuring that out, it will be about the hated brown man instead. My guess is that he's going to feel a lot less guilty and be a lot less generous.

[BartSimpson]

Macguyver Macguyver:

Yes, I believe there is a culture of poverty.

Stop viewing the world through a Marxist lens. It does not apply to everyone.

The FN do not have a monetary trade culture, they have a subsistence culture in which notions of liberal education, capitalist trade, acquisition, and wealth do not apply. Class warfare is irrelvant to a classless society.

Macguyver Macguyver:

No, I do not believe that their culture needs to be forgotten in order to participate in today's society.

I beg to differ, but yes, they need to move past their culture. My family is Irish by culture and I chose to leave that behind in order to be successful so I'm not proposing the Natives do anything that I didn't do myself. There's no way I could have compromised between success in life and being a part of a traditional Irish family.

As to Irish culture, if you do not appreciate the similarities to FN/NA culture then you may want to read, "The Dubliners", for a start.

Macguyver Macguyver:

If you look back at the history books you will note that the same white people complaining today were complaining about the competitive advantages the Treaties gave the Indians 125-150 years ago. You will note the successes of the natives when they transitioned to farming. You will also note the regulations put in place to stem the advantage that the Natives had through their treaty allocations in order to placate the new white settlers in Western Canada. You will note also that Native youth sent to industrial schools did very well before the curriculum was changed in the 1850 +/- a few dozen years, again to raise the bar for natives and allow settlers the competitive advantage.

I do not care what went on in the past. I wasn't there. What I can affect is the future and the present and the reality is that there's a whole big world out there that doesn't care f*ck all about Canada's natives because they've all had hard times, too. Maybe you haven't noticed, but there's a few billion people on this planet who'd be willing to risk everything to have the opportunities Canada's Natives have and piss away.

Macguyver Macguyver:

Now tell me again how their "inferior culture" has anything to do with their lack of success. That is a lazy racist excuse from an ignorant person who does not see that the poverty is epidemic and almost totally a result of systemic barriers put in place since Canada was settled. There is nothing inherently lazy about Natives, how do you think these people survived for millennia in Canada of all god forsaken cold, hot, wet and dry places on earth.

First, -1 for the racist crap. Their culture is inferior and the proof of it is that they have to speak your language and you don't know a single word of theirs. It's not racist to say they have an inferior culture, it's just the way it is. They have no technology of their own, no metallurgy, no written language, and even after 500 years of European example the stupid Natives *STILL* do not cooperate with each other for mutual advantage. The hatreds between the Haida a and the Tlingit, for instance, cause violence even to this day while the European majority wonders what the hell they're fighting about.

Macguyver Macguyver:

It’s a fucking miracle that these people still exist today based on the bullshit we've put them through. Now that the pendulum is about to swing the other way, we might as well make amends, or like I've said in other posts, we're going to get sued, we're going to pay the legal costs on both sides plus billions and billions in damages for 200 + years of not living up to our promises.

The lesson there is that some of them are integrating into the popular culture enough to use it as a weapon against you. That's actually promising.

Macguyver Macguyver:

And they will be laughing all the way to the bank. And I don't blame them. Bury your head in the sand, make some excuses for our behaviour and make up some legal mumbo-jumbo why you think we have no obligation to honour our forefathers promises...it’s not going to help.

So what you are all trying to tell me is that you feel OK that we short change Native Children’s education each by $2000-$3000 every year...and that should not affect their ability to compete for university spots and jobs in the city?

Native Children are shortchanged by parents who want to stay in some remote corner of Canada instead of moving to a place where their kids would be assured of more opportunities. My comparison to inbred, white Appalachian dwellers stands.

Oh, and one more thing: You got all in a dither because I said their culture is inferior yet you're the one proposing that the Natives can't prosper without help from whitey.

[OnTheIce]

Macguyver Macguyver:

And again I ask you: So what you are all trying to tell me is that you feel OK that we short change Native Children’s education each by $2000-$3000 every year...and that should not affect their ability to compete for university spots and jobs in the city?

How come we are short changing these people? Are they not Canadians like the rest of us and do they not deserve to have an education on par with what everyone else gets?

Money may not solve everyone's problems on the reserve, but giving the children a fair shot at getting a decent education will make a difference. How can you object to at least equally funding Native children's primary and secondary education to the same level as the rest of our Canadian children?

Yes, I am OK with the current funding. Here's why.

First, naturally it costs more to school children in major urban areas. Everything costs more with high paid teachers, property, etc, etc.

Secondly, as you are aware, funding is only part of the problem. Their education system lacks structure, it even lacks a school board to regulate the education. The Feds have basically bribed Native groups with 30 million dollars to come to the table to create a school board for Native education.

These schools have no regulation. No Board to ensure performance standards are met...nothing. We're throwing money at a system with no foundation.

Why are the Native people so reluctant to come to the table to form a school board?

Some Native groups are rejecting change, wanting to control their own education (which is awful) while asking for more money to solve the problem.

[Macguyver]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Macguyver Macguyver:

Yes, I believe there is a culture of poverty.

Stop viewing the world through a Marxist lens. It does not apply to everyone.

The FN do not have a monetary trade culture, they have a subsistence culture in which notions of liberal education, capitalist trade, acquisition, and wealth do not apply. Class warfare is irrelvant to a classless society.

Yet they do not exist in a vacuum, they exist in Canada. And your pretension to know more than them despite never having gone through their experience validates against the very claim that you are making. Simply stated, you cannot call our country a classless society then assert that your worldview and the worldview of the "white people" is superior to theirs, being a Canadian (or if not posting on a Canadian website).

[Macguyver]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I beg to differ, but yes, they need to move past their culture. My family is Irish by culture and I chose to leave that behind in order to be successful so I'm not proposing the Natives do anything that I didn't do myself. There's no way I could have compromised between success in life and being a part of a traditional Irish family.

As to Irish culture, if you do not appreciate the similarities to FN/NA culture then you may want to read, "The Dubliners", for a start.

Agreed, but that does not make your Irish culture any less important to you. It is still part of your identity. And I bet you have alot of characteristics of Irish people and you more than likely have friends and family who are Irish and you like to do Irish things. You participate in society as a person of Irish decent.

And also, Ireland still exists...no? There are still weee little leprachons running around doing magical things and so forth...So even though you've given up being "Irish" you still identify with your Irish roots and find value in that...no?

[Gunnair]

Macguyver Macguyver:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I beg to differ, but yes, they need to move past their culture. My family is Irish by culture and I chose to leave that behind in order to be successful so I'm not proposing the Natives do anything that I didn't do myself. There's no way I could have compromised between success in life and being a part of a traditional Irish family.

As to Irish culture, if you do not appreciate the similarities to FN/NA culture then you may want to read, "The Dubliners", for a start.

Agreed, but that does not make your Irish culture any less important to you. It is still part of your identity. And I bet you have alot of characteristics of Irish people and you more than likely have friends and family who are Irish and you like to do Irish things. You participate in society as a person of Irish decent.

And also, Ireland still exists...no? There are still weee little leprachons running around doing magical things and so forth...So even though you've given up being "Irish" you still identify with your Irish roots and find value in that...no?

The point might be that he gave up the concept of fighting with the Fianna, head hunting, and worshiping the Tuatha de Danann (his loss really - Jesus is a bit of a sissy beside the Dagda)He (like most Irish) have moved beyond tribal loyalties and feudalism in the off chance it would better themselves individually (and ultimately as a society)

Those 'Irish' traits that make it difficult to exist successfully in the 21st century.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

Jesus is a bit of a sissy beside the Dagda)He (like most Irish) have moved beyond tribal loyalties and feudalism in the off chance it would better themselves individually (and ultimately as a society)

Jesus was Irish?

[PluggyRug]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Jesus is a bit of a sissy beside the Dagda)He (like most Irish) have moved beyond tribal loyalties and feudalism in the off chance it would better themselves individually (and ultimately as a society)

Jesus was Irish?

No, but he wanted to be.

[ShepherdsDog]

I thought having the skin flayed from his back and being crucified was punishment enough