[Lemmy]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Still, compared to Europe, the US is over-priced too. North Americans pay more simply because the distances are usually much longer, there are fewer travellers (due to lower population density) and in most destinations, fewer airports (which means airlines pay more for landing rights). This is probably the only instance where people wish Canada had a hundred million people or so, as it would result in more travel, more competition and better prices.

Competition is a double-edged sword when it comes to the airline industry. You're absolutely correct about Canada's size and population being key factors. The domestic airline industry is what economists call a "natural monopoly". That means the market is too small to support two businesses. Another example would be the lone grocery store in a small town. Canada has experimented with competition in the domestic industry (remember Canadian Airlines?). When we had two domestic carriers, they were both growing broke, the market being too small to sustain the two. So our choice is either one carrier (a monopoly) where the consumer gets ripped off, or a competitive market where all the carriers lose money.

Where I disagree with you, Boots, is with the notion that it would be a good thing to have more competition in the airline industry. Competition means cutting costs and I don't like riding on things whose owners are cost-cutting to stay in business. I'd rather get ripped off, economically, on the ticket price, know that the airline is making a healthy profit and re-investing that money into keeping air travel safe. When I get on a plane, I want to pay a little extra to know the goddamn thing's sewn together properly.

[PJB]

Canadian Airlines could not compete with Air Canada. At the time Air Canada was so badly subsidized by the government that they had a guaranteed monopoly on most major routes.
Canada can have more than one carrier, look at WestJet, they are not flying a fleet of aircraft they cannot fill. They do not have multiple flights flying routes for the business class that they are flying at half capacity.

[bootlegga]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Where I disagree with you, Boots, is with the notion that it would be a good thing to have more competition in the airline industry. Competition means cutting costs and I don't like riding on things whose owners are cost-cutting to stay in business. I'd rather get ripped off, economically, on the ticket price, know that the airline is making a healthy profit and re-investing that money into keeping air travel safe. When I get on a plane, I want to pay a little extra to know the goddamn thing's sewn together properly.

I never said I wanted cheap tickets, I just noted that because of larger population density and shorter distances, there are cheaper fares in Europe. More competition usually brings cheaper prices, but the other two factors (pop density and distance) are bigger factors in pricing in the airline world.

Frankly, I hate flying Wal-MartJet (oops, sorry WestJet) because of their business model. There used to be a day when you could fly somewhere, watch a movie and get a half-decent meal included in the price - now thanks to Wal-MartJet, no matter who I fly with in Canada, I get a crappy little bag of Bits & Bites, a shot glass of pop/juice and have to swipe my credit card to watch a movie. And to top it off, WestJet has fewer flights and less connections than Air Canada, so I either have to cut my trip short/stay longer than I want to and connect through Calgary in many cases. All to save perhaps $25-50 a seat - hardly the bargain WestJet makes itself out to be. I've flown WestJet once, and God willing, it'll be the last time too.

I long for the old days of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada...both airlines provided me better service than WestJet can ever hope to. In that, I fully agree, I'd prefer to pay a few more bucks and get better service and know the planes are well taken care, than save a few bucks and be forced to eat lunch inside an airport.

[EyeBrock]

Me, Mrs Brock and a Brocklette are off to Disney. Intially we looked at flying. The cost is about half from BUF that it is from YYZ but you still have to be there 3 hours before, flight time, waiting for bags etc then having to rent a vehicle while in Fla. I made a command decision and we are driving.

Sod TSA screening and being buggered about by airlines, we are in control and we are driving. Night stop en route at a nice motel and drive until we see palm trees!

Bollocks to the airlines.

[martin14]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Me, Mrs Brock and a Brocklette are off to Disney. Intially we looked at flying. The cost is about half from BUF that it is from YYZ but you still have to be there 3 hours before, flight time, waiting for bags etc then having to rent a vehicle while in Fla. I made a command decision and we are driving.

Sod TSA screening and being buggered about by airlines, we are in control and we are driving. Night stop en route at a nice motel and drive until we see palm trees!

Bollocks to the airlines.

Well said mate !


If they would build a bridge across the Bering Straight, I'd rather drive
across Russia, would be a great run.


Back to the topic, it's about bloody time.

If they would put the final price on all goods like they do in Europe,
I'm sure people would be much happier at the end of the day.

The sticker shock of the HST probably helped to kill it.. if the BC
gov't ever actually kills it.

Still waiting......

[Regina]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Me, Mrs Brock and a Brocklette are off to Disney. Intially we looked at flying. The cost is about half from BUF that it is from YYZ but you still have to be there 3 hours before, flight time, waiting for bags etc then having to rent a vehicle while in Fla. I made a command decision and we are driving.

Sod TSA screening and being buggered about by airlines, we are in control and we are driving. Night stop en route at a nice motel and drive until we see palm trees!

Bollocks to the airlines.

Mapquest says it will take you about 21 hours but I bet you'll be able to do it in under 20 hours. Two years ago I drove back here with my chum who lives there in the winter and it took us 25 hours. Mapquest says it should have been 30 hours. We only stopped for gas, food, pee and hit the road again. Not crazy fast driving but the roads are great down there to travel.
Have you checked out Allegiant Air? They fly out of Buffalo and fly into Sanford, FL. It's a smaller airport about 20 minutes north of Orlando. My wife and I have flown them a few times and they were good. Round trip to Orlando was $650 for 2 roundtrip taxes and bag fees included. In December we flew to Phoenix roundtrip for 2 and it was $450 all taxes and bag fees included. They have certain days they fly so it may limit their convenience.

[Brenda]

The flight from here to Vancouver with AC is 1 hour and 15 minutes, and $500+ pp incl. taxes. It is an 8 hour drive. It's ridiculous.

[bootlegga]

Brenda Brenda:

The flight from here to Vancouver with AC is 1 hour and 15 minutes, and $500+ pp incl. taxes. It is an 8 hour drive. It's ridiculous.

That goes back to the population density thing I mentioned. Flights to Edmonton and Calgary are cheaper than your flight, despite a similar flight time and only a few hundred extra KMs. That's why it's cheaper to fly between London and Toronto than it is between Edmonton and Toronto - more population means more supply and lower prices.

[Brenda]

Flights from Vancouver to NYC are twice to three times as expensive as flights from Spokane to NYC.

[PostFactum]

Brenda Brenda:

It's funny to see tickets to Europe for $379 (or something) and then later see another $800 in taxes and surcharges

I agree, it disappoints just over a second you look on it

[bootlegga]

Brenda Brenda:

Flights from Vancouver to NYC are twice to three times as expensive as flights from Spokane to NYC.

Part of that is the fact that it's an international flight from Vancouver, while the flight from Spokane is a domestic flight - and which market is bigger, the domestic market in the USA or the one between Canada and the US?

In my example (Edmonton to Toronto vs London to Toronto), the key difference is volume and the fact that tour/charter airlines have a lot of flights between London and Toronto, while there is no demand for such flights between Edmonton and Toronto - it is almost entirely domestic travellers. It's much like the all-inclusive deals you can get to Las Vegas or Mexico - the price is substantially lower than the cost of just a plane ticket on an airline south, because a tour operator knows well in advance that their plane will be 100% full, whereas Air Canada (or any other airline) has no such assurance.

The other key difference is that many of the flights between Vancouver and NYC are non-stop, while the flights out of Spokane have at least one transfer at an airline hub somewhere (many have two transfers). Flights with multiple transfers are considered less desirable than direct flights and as such usually have lower prices.

If, however, you were to compare say Seattle with Vancouver, you'd see the prices are lower than Vancovuer's also - but in this case, it is because there are more flights from more airlines going to New York City from Seattle than there are from Vancouver going to New York City.

Again, this all revolves around the low population of the town you live in and the relative remoteness of it. That's why not just flights cost more, but groceries, gas, and pretty much everything else. If you lived in Vancouver or Calgary or Edmonton, prices on many things would be less expensive than they are in the BC interior. It's a trade-off one makes for the lifestyle you want. I've yet to find a case where one can have their cake and eat it too.

[Brenda]

Ok, how about this one?
Trail-Vancouver with Pacific Coastal $398
Castlegar - Vancouver with Air Canada, same date $534.

The airports are 30 minutes apart, flight time 1 hour and 15 minutes each. Also, there are more flights going from Castlegar than from Trail. If you want to do a stop-over in Calgary (...) your flight with Air Canada will cost you $1240.

[Brenda]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Brenda Brenda:

Flights from Vancouver to NYC are twice to three times as expensive as flights from Spokane to NYC.

The other key difference is that many of the flights between Vancouver and NYC are non-stop, while the flights out of Spokane have at least one transfer at an airline hub somewhere (many have two transfers). Flights with multiple transfers are considered less desirable than direct flights and as such usually have lower prices.

Only Cathay Pacific has a non-stop flight from Van to NYC, on a night flight. Air Canada flies over Montreal or Toronto, with 9+ hours lay overs. Air Canada is almost twice as expensive.

[ShepherdsDog]

It was nice flying JAL from Kaohsiung because you often had an overnight in Narita at the Nikko Narita. The breakfast buffet was excellent. Hong Kong is the best layover though....They have a Popeye's, and everyone knows Popeye's rocks.

[Brenda]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

It was nice flying JAL from Kaohsiung because you often had an overnight in Narita at the Nikko Narita. The breakfast buffet was excellent. Hong Kong is the best layover though....They have a Popeye's, and everyone knows Popeye's rocks.

My aunt and uncle (she passed away, he still lives in Australia) always had a lay-over in Singapore when they went to The Netherlands. They always took a couple of days there