[raydan]

That's the question we're trying to answer at my new job.

International Study of Adults (ISA)
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-bin/imdb/p ... dm=8&dis=2

[Freakinoldguy]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

True. I think, given the current state of our education system, the degree is becomming less of a factor in the hiring of a person and more emphisis is being plance on experience, references and percieved ability.

Yes. I'm convinced that the signaling value of a degree is declining, but is still strongly significant. It's falling for three reasons:
1. The cost of post-secondary education, both in real terms and opportunity cost, has increased significantly over the past two decades. More and more smart people are excluded by cost. This effect is even larger when you consider that the loss of unionized workplaces over the past 20 years has meant that there is much more competition for good jobs among those without degrees. It's a bigger gamble to enter the job market without a degree now than ever.
2. Kids are lazier and more entitled than ever. It's an absolute fact. The degree is less valued because it is less valuable. A degree is only as valuable as the average increase in value added to its earners' productivity.
3. Human resource professionals are better at interviewing. Interviews are more probing, looking for indications of intelligence and motivation. The interviewer knows that most kids drink and screw their way through college, rarely cracking a book anymore.

The odd thing is, given the economy, I can see families going back to when I was a young and trying to send one kid to Uninversity instead all of them.

The sense of entitlement today that everyone should have a University education if they want one, despite their mental or financial limitations is laudable but not reasonable. Which, when you think about it actually may be diluting some of the degrees these institutions are handing out.

Universities appear to have become big businesses and to achieve their financial goals they have to fill all the seats. So what better way to achieve that than to give out degrees to anyone with a pulse who shows up.

My guess is that alot of kids are gonna be in debt till they koof because of Universities with lax admittance requrirements, lax education standards and no sense or responsibilty when dealing with young impressionable youth.

How many more Bachelor of Education Degrees can they pump out and still expect these kids to get jobs?

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

It really depends on what sort of job you want and how motivated you are to get there. Some jobs just can't be had without that university education, others benefit far more from a short structured series of courses followed by on the job work experience.

Actually, this is one other reason why university can be good. It's not what you learn but who you meet. I know a few uni grads that have jobs because of who they met at uni.
In the case of a friend of mine, it was also a case of who you know. She went from stripper to computer programmer and network administrator, only without ever having set foot in a post seconday institution. Not even sure if she has her high school diploma. She also had the diploma'd computer nerds call her at home on her days off when they needed a hand trouble shooting.

For me, despite only having a high school diploma, it was chemistry that permitted me to retire by the age of 40, albeit some of that was due to very fortunate timing.

However, if one isn't the "self employment" type, a uni degree or a trade school ticket will certainly improve you chances of finding a good [paying] job.

I'm sure I've mentioned this before but when I lived in Windsor, two of the richest guys in the city were a tool and die man and a contractor.

I don't think it matters much between a uni degree and a trade school ticket these days, just as long as you're doing something more than being satisfied with a mere high school diploma.

[Dragon-Dancer]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

It really depends on what sort of job you want and how motivated you are to get there. Some jobs just can't be had without that university education, others benefit far more from a short structured series of courses followed by on the job work experience.

Actually, this is one other reason why university can be good. It's not what you learn but who you meet. I know a few uni grads that have jobs because of who they met at uni.
In the case of a friend of mine, it was also a case of who you know. She went from stripper to computer programmer and network administrator, only without ever having set foot in a post secondary institution. Not even sure if she has her high school diploma. She also had the diploma'd computer nerds call her at home on her days off when they needed a hand trouble shooting.

Who you know is a huge factor in finding a job these days. Pretty much every job I've had, I found because I knew someone or because I had worked for someone familiar to the person doing the hiring. Networking can be far more important than a lot of people realize. My first job was actually with someone I had gone to tech school with. I can also easily understand how that friend of yours could have done what she did. Tech is just one of those fields where a motivated self starter can be every bit as good as someone who has a piece of paper.

[BartSimpson]

From an email sent to me this morning:

$1:

The Making of a 20-Something Multimillionaire Serial Entrepreneur
By Teri Evans
Related Topics
• Startup Successes
Gurbaksh Chahal dropped out of high school at 16 to become an entrepreneur. Find out how he went from bullied kid to multimillionaire 20-something.
Growing up in gritty East San Jose, California, Gurbaksh Chahal struggled to fit in. Emigrating from India with his family at age 4, he wore a traditional head covering for Sikh children called a patka to school. It was just one cultural difference that his pint-sized peers bullied him about. But instead of succumbing to what he recalls as a "wild, wild west for minorities," Chahal leaned into his close-knit family for the strength that would become his entrepreneurial fuel.
He dropped out of high school at 16, started a business and never looked back.
Fascinated by online advertising and the "concept of a click," Chahal founded ClickAgents in December 1998. Less than two years later, he sold it for $40 million. Staying hungry for growth, he started online advertising network BlueLithium in 2004. Yahoo Inc. bought it within three years for $300 million. The latest entrepreneurial venture for Chahal, now 29, is RadiumOne, a fast-growing ad network that leverages social data on the Web.
Related Video: Chahal on Timing a Business Sale
In this interview with 'Trep Talk, Chahal's tone is sharp and determined, yet quickly softens when he speaks of family. The serial entrepreneur, who also published a memoir, The Dream (Palgrave Macmillan, 2008), offers insight on staying competitive, making the most of defining moments, and the one thing he changed that shifted his outlook on life. Edited interview excerpts follow.
On breaking free from bullies: My focus was to think: 'OK, I'm not going to have the most friends, be prom king or the most popular student — but so what?' I fell in love with the Internet, with business and the idea of being in control and knowing that my destiny was in my own hands. I became more determined than ever to succeed.
I'm inspired by … my family. When my parents were working, my grandmother was their equivalent. There was a sense of belonging at home, even though at school I was told differently. My grandmother would always comfort me and say it's all going to work out one day. As a kid it made me realize: 'Maybe she's right, maybe it will.' The DNA of having discipline, ambition, making someone else proud and believing in yourself doesn't have to come from business, it can come from nurturing.
Success tip: Don't focus so much energy on what you've lost, focus on what you need to win. There will be times when you may lose $1 million in deals. You'll think it's the end of the world, but the next day you may make $1.2 million. Nothing is meant to always work out. You just need a Plan B.
On staying competitive: Many [business] people focus on what is static, black and white. Yet great algorithms can be rewritten. A business process can be defined better. A business model can be copied. But the speed of execution is dynamic within you and can never be copied. When you have an idea, figure out the pieces you need quickly, go to market, believe in it, and continue to iterate.

Biggest business influence: The best CEO of our time, Steve Jobs, for his vision and mastering the execution of it.
Related: 10 Things to Thank Steve Jobs For
My proudest moment … was seeing the look in my father's eyes when I told him that I sold my second company [for $300 million]. He didn't have to say anything.
On defining moments: You'll probably have two or three really bad days in a year. Those are pivotal points where every decision is instrumental. You have to have a very thick skin and be more focused on solving the problem than worrying about it.
Stress-taming tactic: I disconnect from technology for a weekend, generally once a month. You almost need to so you can think and appreciate what really matters in life — family, friends, your health. I let loved ones know where I am, in case anything happens. But if something does go wrong then I'm not doing my job right, because I should be hiring people who can problem-solve on their own.
Attitude adjuster: When my grandmother passed away I created a slideshow with pictures of her and me. Anytime I need motivation or hit an obstacle, I replay it.
Advice for young 'treps: People still stereotype all day long. But if you forget your own age, you'll get so focused on the business that you become ultra-confident and people will forget to question how old you are.
Biggest challenge: We have 120 amazing [employees] and we're growing fast, so it's about finding the next 120 people who share the same culture. I'm a true believer the assets go home at night — and your assets are your people.
When faced with rejection … embrace it. This will change the entire way you look at life. Whenever someone says they're not interested in working [for me] or buying [from me], it fuels my competitive side. It may not be today or even next year, but I will carefully design a strategy to get a "yes." And when a "yes" fuels you more than the actual deal or opportunity, you can embrace rejection in a much more competitive way.
Favorite book: [Sun Tzu's] The Art of War has a way of broadly looking at life and I've incorporated it into my business philosophy.
If I knew then, what I know now … I would still drop out of high school. (Chuckle.)
Secret quirk: I love Twinkies. I stay away from them as an adult, but I had a love-hate relationship with them as a chubby kid growing up. Last time I had one was three years ago. You can't just have one.
A big turnoff is … when people approach me and say, "I have a million-dollar idea and it's going to be amazing." They think just an idea will make them millions. That's not the way business really works. It's about executing the hell out of your idea — better than anyone else.
What's next: We're launching two massive projects by the end of the year where we'll get closer to the consumer and help make advertising more like information. We're also aggressively expanding internationally. We'll launch in Australia, Canada and France in the fourth quarter. With that, based on the way revenue and profit grows, [RadiumOne] could be on a 12- to 15-month track to an IPO.
Copyright © 2011 Entrepreneur Media, Inc. All rights reserved.
Related Content
 How to Create a Social Media Marketing Schedule
 How to Maintain Clients' Trust While Managing a Crisis


http://businessonmain.msn.com/browseres ... 3705__cnvU

[stokes]

As some of you know, I am a recruiter for the Canadian Forces and deal with individuals from all types of educational back grounds, which has given me a unique perspective much like an HR professional mentioned earlier.

Most individuals who dont get in (besides those with "issues") are becuase they dont have the proper education level in high school. I have seen high school transcripts where students have taken the easiest route possible to graduate, and then waltz in wanting a job in a highly technical field not having taken math since grade 10 and then only took the basic course. There are more courses you can take in high schools (in Ontario) that have no purpose other than to get unmotivated students to graduate, and trust me students take these courses and arent challenged academically.

Even with students who have graduated college, take courses that will not help them succeed. There are a truckload of 20 year old security guards who have a diploma in Police Foundations who are not hireable as police officers until they are at least 25 if not older. Yet every college, both public and private, offer this program because it is a cash cow.

For those individuals who are aspiring to go to university or who have graduated, again take the easy way out of really learning something tangible. There are too many Bachelor of Arts programs available that basically make someone useless because they do not provide a clear focus to employment. How many people do you know as Engineers who cant find work, or doctors, nurses, physicists...etc

The big issue is that people pursue education for the sake of education and a peace of paper/ parchment without any thought to how they will put that knowledge to use and get a proper payday, and that is why tradesmen are the ones who seem to have no shortage of work because they have skills that people need.

[Lemmy]

stokes stokes:

For those individuals who are aspiring to go to university or who have graduated, again take the easy way out of really learning something tangible. There are too many Bachelor of Arts programs available that basically make someone useless because they do not provide a clear focus to employment. How many people do you know as Engineers who cant find work, or doctors, nurses, physicists...etc

The big issue is that people pursue education for the sake of education and a peace of paper/ parchment without any thought to how they will put that knowledge to use and get a proper payday, and that is why tradesmen are the ones who seem to have no shortage of work because they have skills that people need.

There are three kinds of people taking undergraduate degrees:
Type 1. Those who are in technical programs that offer specific job training, such as Engineering;
Type 2. Those who are there, genuinely, to get an education, regardless the discipline. Those who are there to learn, not to job train;
Type 3. Those who are there because they want the piece of paper because they think it will make them employable. The key for human resource workers is to separate those in category 2 from those in category 3.

I strongly disagree with your statment that "There are too many Bachelor of Arts programs available that basically make someone useless because they do not provide a clear focus to employment". You are assuming that all of those people are students of type 3 rather than type 2. Those students taking arts degrees who are actually learning are EXTREMELY valuable to employers. They're learning critical thinking. As I've said before, I talk to employers all the time and many PREFER history majors over any other discipline, even for technology-based jobs, because those candidates have learned to think over the course of their studies. Medical schools, for example, are often accepting history majors over biology majors, recognizing that too many B.Sc. grads are of student Type 3.

The most important skills in any job are inteligence, critical thinking and motivation. I would encourage anyone working in human resources to make it their prime concern to identify candidates of Type 2. They're the people you want in your organization.

[Macguyver]

Hard work and being able to offer your employer something that will improve their bottom line are key.

Better yet, start your own business. Me, mid 30's made 6 figures in 2011 for the first time. No degree, no diploma, lots of management courses, lots of adult learning, mind you I've got 10 classes from a BA plugging away a course here a course there for the last forever...

You have to be able to invent yourself and reinvent yourself when need be, fit in and then shine...and dress for the job you want, not the job you have. Show up early, leave late, learn as much as you can from the guys you work with. Be a "can do" person, and always, always do what you say your going to do. And be a problem solver, if you don't know how to do something, look it up, spend an evening or a weekend figuring it out, because next time promotions come along the people who make their boss look good are getting raises and promotions.

I've seen people with degrees pumping gas, complaining all they got out of a $30k university degree was a shitty job. Chances are if you're doing that shitty job for an extended period of time with a degree, you're degree in Ancient Hebrew Fairytales wasn't really a good choice.

[stokes]

Lemmy

That is why I didnt do specifics when it comes to Bachelor of Arts programs because some are very useful others not so much, take my brother for example, he went to university to get a degree in kinesiology (sp?) with a minor in education, wants to be a gym teacher. He wasted his time in university(my opinion) because there are more "gym" teachers than there are jobs and in a lot of cases that is the common theme. More people want a job than there are available positions so IMHO people are wasting their time and potential gambling with education that can be borderline useless

[OnTheIce]

With respect, "hard work" has little to do with making advances in your career.

The two most important things:

1(a). Networking
1(b). Education

You always see guys with lots of education working dead end jobs. Why? They have no people skills and in turn, have made no contacts along the way.

Doing your job, not killing yourself to "work hard" and making contacts along the way is what's going to get you into the career you want.

[Brenda]

stokes stokes:

Lemmy

That is why I didnt do specifics when it comes to Bachelor of Arts programs because some are very useful others not so much, take my brother for example, he went to university to get a degree in kinesiology (sp?) with a minor in education, wants to be a gym teacher. He wasted his time in university(my opinion) because there are more "gym" teachers than there are jobs and in a lot of cases that is the common theme. More people want a job than there are available positions so IMHO people are wasting their time and potential gambling with education that can be borderline useless

What he should do is become a personal trainer or something... Or work at a hospital or a rehabilitation centre...

[stokes]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

With respect, "hard work" has little to do with making advances in your career.

The two most important things:

1(a). Networking
1(b). Education

You always see guys with lots of education working dead end jobs. Why? They have no people skills and in turn, have made no contacts along the way.

Doing your job, not killing yourself to "work hard" and making contacts along the way is what's going to get you into the career you want.

I have to agree with the networking, I worked with a guy who spent 2 years living in Toronto, with a degree in computer sciences but was unable to find a job in his field because he didnt know the "right" people. At the time he was there the average was 3 years of shitty jobs and networking to get the job you wanted and trained for.

[stokes]

Brenda Brenda:

stokes stokes:

Lemmy

That is why I didnt do specifics when it comes to Bachelor of Arts programs because some are very useful others not so much, take my brother for example, he went to university to get a degree in kinesiology (sp?) with a minor in education, wants to be a gym teacher. He wasted his time in university(my opinion) because there are more "gym" teachers than there are jobs and in a lot of cases that is the common theme. More people want a job than there are available positions so IMHO people are wasting their time and potential gambling with education that can be borderline useless

What he should do is become a personal trainer or something... Or work at a hospital or a rehabilitation centre...

Brenda, I try to avoid that discussion with him as it leads to an argument that doesnt solve anything....he wants what he wants....so I chuckle at his $12/hr and mountain of student debt

[Lemmy]

stokes stokes:

Lemmy

That is why I didnt do specifics when it comes to Bachelor of Arts programs because some are very useful others not so much, take my brother for example, he went to university to get a degree in kinesiology (sp?) with a minor in education, wants to be a gym teacher. He wasted his time in university(my opinion) because there are more "gym" teachers than there are jobs and in a lot of cases that is the common theme. More people want a job than there are available positions so IMHO people are wasting their time and potential gambling with education that can be borderline useless

I'm not disagreeing with you that there is a glut of grads. Your brother would come under Type 1 from my list, and that group certainly includes an over supply of phys-ed teachers. The point I was trying to make is that going to university with getting an education as your purpose, is never a bad thing. Those candidates, regardless their subject of study, are HIGHLY employable. The problem is that far too many undergrads are Type 3s who are there because they think the parchment will entitle them to a 6-figure income. It's not one's choice of a degree is in art history or 18th century French literature that makes them useless in the work-world. It's their work ethic and sense of entitlement.

[stokes]

Lemmy Lemmy:

stokes stokes:

Lemmy

That is why I didnt do specifics when it comes to Bachelor of Arts programs because some are very useful others not so much, take my brother for example, he went to university to get a degree in kinesiology (sp?) with a minor in education, wants to be a gym teacher. He wasted his time in university(my opinion) because there are more "gym" teachers than there are jobs and in a lot of cases that is the common theme. More people want a job than there are available positions so IMHO people are wasting their time and potential gambling with education that can be borderline useless

I'm not disagreeing with you that there is a glut of grads. Your brother would come under Type 1 from my list, and that group certainly includes an over supply of phys-ed teachers. The point I was trying to make is that going to university with getting an education as your purpose, is never a bad thing. Those candidates, regardless their subject of study, are HIGHLY employable. The problem is that far too many undergrads are Type 3s who are there because they think the parchment will entitle them to a 6-figure income. It's not one's choice of a degree is in art history or 18th century French literature that makes them useless in the work-world. It's their work ethic and sense of entitlement.

I can agree with that