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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:25 pm
 


I would hardly call forcing debt onto provinces to make a federal budget look good financial responsibility (a la Chretien and Martin), but that's just me.

I will admit though, that putting the now excess revenues towards debt repayment was a good thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:57 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:

And yet Chretien and Martin had surpluses...hmmm.

The GST tax cut, while nice, shouldn't have happened. Harper made the mistake of cutting close to $15 Billion in tax revenues right before a major recession hit. That would have made a big difference in the bottom line these last few years.


And if he didn't, I'd be betting you'd be one of the first to jump on him for a broken promise kinda like Conservatives do with Chretien...despite it being the smart choice

bootlegga bootlegga:

It's not that he can't, it's that he won't.

Cutting spending in the 90s was both necessary and hard, but Chretien did it regardless and while many departments suffered, in the end, it was what the country needed.

Can you imagine if the Chretien Liberals had continued to tax and spend they way they did under Trudeau? Canada would be in a far worse position than Greece right now, but because Chretien and Martin took a hard stand on finance, Canada got its credit rating restored to AAA.

Sorry, but if Harper really did what was necessary for Canada (and not his party and their supporters), he might be surprised to find that Canadians would support him. Instead, the cuts he has made so far are nothing more than partisan politics and playing to his base.

Harper needs to grow a pair and just do his job.


Easy to say, but we're not comparing apples to apples. In politics, we never are. Situations are always different.

Chretien and Martin also had a strong economy to help them through the cuts. They weren't just coming out of a World recession having spent 50+ billion to stimulate the economy.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:58 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
bootlegga bootlegga:

And yet Chretien and Martin had surpluses...hmmm.

The GST tax cut, while nice, shouldn't have happened. Harper made the mistake of cutting close to $15 Billion in tax revenues right before a major recession hit. That would have made a big difference in the bottom line these last few years.


And if he didn't, I'd be betting you'd be one of the first to jump on him for a broken promise kinda like Conservatives do with Chretien...despite it being the smart choice


Nope, I have no problem agreeing with Harper where he made the right decision - like on income trusts. He went back on an election promise that was for the good of the country - kudos.

AFAIK, this is the only decision Harper ever made that really angered his political base - even then once it was explained - most forgave him pretty quickly for going back on his promise. Like I said, he needs to take the road not taken and say this is for the good of the country, not the party. Sure, he'll suffer in the short term, but he's got more than three years to heal the wounds and taxpayers memories are usually incredibly short.

FYI, I don't have a problem with tax cuts, but I think Harper should have cut income taxes by either lowing the tax rates at the low end or increasing the basic personal credit (my preference), instead of cutting the GST.

As a consumption tax, the GST affects the wealthy far more than it does the poor. After all, who is going to pay more tax, the guy buying a donut for $.79 or the guy buying a fancy pastry at an upscale bakery for $4.50 (same goes for cars, houses, etc - the more expensive the item, the higher the sales taxes paid).

But what Harper did was cut the GST and RAISE income taxes - doing the exact opposite, which of course plays to his political base.

The same could be argued for the TFSAs he set up - that is going to cost future governments tens of billions of dollars in lost taxes. After all, how many people living on $20,000 a year can afford to save $5000 a year, even if it is tax free? Yet the wealthy can do it every year and to the maximum limit, which is going to cost us big time down the road.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:
bootlegga bootlegga:

It's not that he can't, it's that he won't.

Cutting spending in the 90s was both necessary and hard, but Chretien did it regardless and while many departments suffered, in the end, it was what the country needed.

Can you imagine if the Chretien Liberals had continued to tax and spend they way they did under Trudeau? Canada would be in a far worse position than Greece right now, but because Chretien and Martin took a hard stand on finance, Canada got its credit rating restored to AAA.

Sorry, but if Harper really did what was necessary for Canada (and not his party and their supporters), he might be surprised to find that Canadians would support him. Instead, the cuts he has made so far are nothing more than partisan politics and playing to his base.

Harper needs to grow a pair and just do his job.


Easy to say, but we're not comparing apples to apples. In politics, we never are. Situations are always different.

Chretien and Martin also had a strong economy to help them through the cuts. They weren't just coming out of a World recession having spent 50+ billion to stimulate the economy.


The economy wasn't always rosy while Chretien and Martin were in office. I think you're forgetting the dot com bubble and the recession post 9/11 shortly thereafter - yet as bad as both those were, the government still paid down the debt and had a surplus. And best of all, because we had that surplus, the government could afford to spend billions on strengthening border security, fighting a war in Afghanistan etc.

If something similar were to happen now, our deficit would balloon from its current $30 odd billion back over the $50 billion mark. Maybe you are comfortable handing down nearly a trillion dollar debt to your children and grandchildren, but I'm not.

Still, if we had the $15 billion or so from the GST, the deficits in 2008 and 2009 would have only been $35+ billion instead of $50+ billion. Maybe it's no big deal to you, but that's a difference of $30 billion or so. That's not chump change. Think if Harper had had the $45 or so billion that was NOT collected in 2008, 2009, and 2010 - it would have gone a long way to paying for stimulus spending. Tack on the $15 billion from this year and it equals the $60 billion he wants to give back to corporations.

Like I said, Harper needs to grow a pair and do what's best for the country, not his career. I never liked Chretien or Trudeau or Mulroney very much, but at least when they made the hard calls: Chretien - Debt & Deficit; Trudeau - Quebec Crisis & Constitution; Mulroney - Free trade $ GST), I think that they did it because they thought that was what Canada needed to do, not because it might please their political base.

Lots of people may never like Stephen Harper, but they might just respect the guy if he does.

That's all I'm asking Harper to do. If he wants to be considered a great PM, then he needs to step up. Otherwise, he can join R.B. Bennett and others in the dustbin of history as leaders who weren't up to the task at hand.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:47 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:

Yeah, that budget surplus sure did a lot of damage to our financial picture - good thing Harper and Deficit Jim have put us back in the minus column where we rightfully belong!
How's every other country in the world doing?

Oh right.

Calling him partisan while having this statement in the same post is kind of silly. Are they financial gods? Of course not, but they aren't doing half bad considering the U.S. and the EU are rapidly falling into oblivion.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:50 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
bootlegga bootlegga:

I fully agree we'd be in a deficit - the difference is how much of a deficit we'd be in. Sure spending MIGHT be higher, and I emphasize might, because spending has increased 22% under Harper since 2006 and that the number of civil servants earning more than 100k has doubled. So despite the claim of being a fiscal conservative, he's shown he's anything but one.


Spending went up under Chretien by 10% and another 10.4% under Martin in 2004 alone and they all had their unique challenges. Chretien and the Liberals inherited a mess from Mulroney and Harper got stuck with the World-wide recession.


And yet Chretien and Martin had surpluses...hmmm.

The GST tax cut, while nice, shouldn't have happened. Harper made the mistake of cutting close to $15 Billion in tax revenues right before a major recession hit. That would have made a big difference in the bottom line these last few years.
He should have consulted his crystal ball?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:07 pm
 


Actually, Chretien and Martin faced a very slow recovery from a very deep recession at the start of their term. Real recovery did not set in from the downturn of the early 1990s until 1995 in Canada.

I do not agree that their expenditure cutting was the required answer. Natural growth that resumed then would have taken care of the deficit - possibly taking a year or two longer but without the negative effects of the economic dampening and the throwing in to the ranks of the unemployed of hundreds of thousands of government employees.

I also think far too much is being made of a need to cut spending now. It has been the mantra of the Republicans in the USA for thirty years andd of the Reform and CPC since they had any influence.

However, Canada's social spending is, and always has been, lower than the OECD average, quite substantially lower, and not really very much higher than the US. Its Healthcare expenditures are somewhat above average for reasons that are rather intractable given Canada's fractures governence. Its unemployment benefits are a little above but those do not compensate for the lack of income support in other ways and in other programmes.

In my opinion the answer is not in cutting anything but in restoring a level of taxation capable of sustaining a progressive society.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:13 pm
 


eureka eureka:
Actually, Chretien and Martin faced a very slow recovery from a very deep recession at the start of their term. Real recovery did not set in from the downturn of the early 1990s until 1995 in Canada.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The recession of the early 90s was a planned recession, deliberately created as a test of John Crow's zero inflation policy.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:22 pm
 


lemmy...how dare you insinuate that you know more than our forum deity. 8O His connections at (name any random group, government, department, faculty or regiment) will have you removed!!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:30 pm
 


ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
lemmy...how dare you insinuate that you know more than our forum deity. 8O His connections at (name any random group, government, department, faculty or regiment) will have you removed!!


Blessed be his posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:50 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
lemmy...how dare you insinuate that you know more than our forum deity. 8O His connections at (name any random group, government, department, faculty or regiment) will have you removed!!


Blessed be his composts.


fixed for accuracy. His contacts in the OPP will have you replaced.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:57 pm
 


eureka eureka:
In my opinion the answer is not in cutting anything but in restoring a level of taxation capable of sustaining a progressive society.



C'mon guys cut him some slack. Given this IMO statement he may be finally getting the nuances of forum etiquette. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:08 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
eureka eureka:
Actually, Chretien and Martin faced a very slow recovery from a very deep recession at the start of their term. Real recovery did not set in from the downturn of the early 1990s until 1995 in Canada.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The recession of the early 90s was a planned recession, deliberately created as a test of John Crow's zero inflation policy.


What I am talking about was set out in my post. That Volcker may have, in part, planed one that got out of hand does not alter what I wrote. In fact, it is irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:49 pm
 


Huh? You made it sound like the Liberals' prime concern was ending the recession and that despite all their efforts, things didn't improve. That's not the case. Chretien didn't FACE a slow recovery. He could have ended the zero-inflation experiment his first day in office. That would have ended the recession instantly. The reason the real recovery didn't happen right away was no one wanted it to.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:23 am
 


bootlegga bootlegga:

That's all I'm asking Harper to do. If he wants to be considered a great PM, then he needs to step up. Otherwise, he can join R.B. Bennett and others in the dustbin of history as leaders who weren't up to the task at hand.


I'm glad we can have a discussion and we can agree on some points and not on others, but I don't like how you brush massive government change off as "well, the other guy did it, so can you".

Times are VERY different than when Chretien and Mulroney were in office and it's naive to think that a solution is just a matter of Harper finding his balls and making a decision to gut the public service.

Our economy is on the edge of taking a huge shit...with the EU in shambles and the American economy in the toilet times are very different and I know the solution to our debt must be quite the task.





PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:02 am
 


peck420 peck420:
I would hardly call forcing debt onto provinces to make a federal budget look good financial responsibility (a la Chretien and Martin), but that's just me.

I will admit though, that putting the now excess revenues towards debt repayment was a good thing.


At the same time, nearly every province was in a surplus budget. No debt was forced on them.


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