[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Fraser Institute Alert!!!

Yeah, I know, and this study does have some typical Fraser Institute biases, but it's overall a pretty simple and innocuous study. There are some attempts to gloss over those aspects of privatization that haven't gone as a right-wing think-tank would predict. Some of those biases include:

1. They count different sized containers as different products, so the actual number of "new" products since privatization is exaggerated. Many of those "new" products are just the same old products in a wider variety of sizes.

2. They gloss over the fact that prices increased which, of course, is counter-intuitive to the Fraser Institute's position that privatization should lead to lower prices. Instead, they "blame" this on the licensing, purchasing and warehousing rules that the new private sellers had to agree to. They also blame the province's desire to maintain tax revenues as sticking point on prices. They imply that prices WOULD have fallen if the government had allowed the market to fully privatize instead of psudo-privatizing.

3. They emphasize the transportation costs of buying liquor, claiming that even though prices actually went up, the consumer actually saves on gas-money. That seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[BeaverFever]

LCBO has "Socially responsible" pricing, meaning that they dont' make liquor so cheap that it can be abused or easily accessible by the indigent.

All I can say is that I dont have a problem with Ontario Liquor prices. A similar sized bottle of Smirnoff is currently $35.30 at LCBO and I dont have a problem with that.

[Freakinoldguy]

Love the term "socially responsible pricing" which in real people speak means taxing the stuff till it hurts.

It's like dope. If people want it they're gonna find a way to get it and pricing isn't gonna be the issue. If they keep up increases in their taxes I can see the alcohol users going underground............again.

Guess I'll have to break out the still. LOL.

[BeaverFever]

The rest of us can afford it at at $20 or $35, would you prefer that squeegee kids and beggars could buy it more easily?

[Freakinoldguy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

The rest of us can afford it at at $20 or $35, would you prefer that squeegee kids and beggars could buy it more easily?

They don't buy 20 or 30 buck booze they buy the cheapest stuff with the biggest kick that they can afford so that theory doesn't fly.

Since they're gonna drink no matter what the price is, maybe the Gov't should be cutting the prices so they don't end up drinking sterno, melted shoe polish or aqua velva martini's which, will eventually come back and cost the taxpayers more because of medical costs.

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

LCBO has "Socially responsible" pricing, meaning that they dont' make liquor so cheap that it can be abused or easily accessible by the indigent.

That's a nice line for the press, but the real reason for the LCBO's pricing is their understanding of consumer demand and monopoly profit maximization. "Social responsibility?" Selling an addictive product to addicts for profit? You don't get to sell booze and cigarettes and claim to moral highground on social responsibility. They make it sound like higher pricing leads to less abuse. Uhhh, no. Addicts' demand curves are steep.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

All I can say is that I dont have a problem with Ontario Liquor prices. A similar sized bottle of Smirnoff is currently $35.30 at LCBO and I dont have a problem with that.

Nor do I. Of course I'd like lower prices but I'd like to buy lots of things more cheaply. But I'd really like the LC just to admit the "social responsibility" thing is just bullshit. I don't mind being fucked so much when I'm not being lied to about it in the process.

[BeaverFever]

Well, even if it is a pretext for a cash-grab, I don't mind. The LCBO is one of the biggest money-makers for the province, More than $1 Billion in sales revenue contributed to provincial coffers annually if I recall. Every dollar they generate is one dollar less that needs come from taxes.

[Hyack]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Just a quick question, I just noticed this is a "newsbot" article but says it was posted by "Kitty" ???? Did kitty get transformed into a news fembot or something?

This article was submitted to the CKA news by kitty, the first post in this thread is the usual Newsbot heading showing the Title, Category, Poster etc. Nothing has changed and I don't really understand what your point is, check any story in the news which has been commented on and you'll see everything is the same as it's always been. Every story shows the name of the person who submitted the story to the system.

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Well, even if it is a pretext for a cash-grab, I don't mind. The LCBO is one of the biggest money-makers for the province, More than $1 Billion in sales revenue contributed to provincial coffers annually if I recall. Every dollar they generate is one dollar less that needs come from taxes.

On that we disagree, Beave. I'm for privatization in Ontario. Privatization in Alberta was not a money-loser for their government. The Alberta government remains the sole supplier of booze in the province. They just sell it at the wholesaler level instead of the retail level. They maintain their monopoly a little closer to the farm gate, that's all. I don't care if liquor sales are a government cash cow. Profitability isn't a justification for government involvement, in my opinion. The government could make money on selling child porn if it wanted. I have a fundamental philosophical problem with the government selling liquor. The purpose of government isn't to sell booze. It's to govern.

[Bruce_E_T]

Lemmy Lemmy:

The purpose of government isn't to sell booze. It's to govern.

Not so fast. The question is if the government does not sell booze who does? What do you go with? Prohibition, which will almost certainly not work or some sort of open market competitive production which sounds downright scary.

Government offers quality control, tax revenue and so called responsible pricing. Booze control is governing as far as I can see.

[Lemmy]

Bruce_E_T Bruce_E_T:

Not so fast. The question is if the government does not sell booze who does? What do you go with? Prohibition, which will almost certainly not work or some sort of open market competitive production which sounds downright scary.

Look who's talking about "Not so fast"! Who said anything about prohibition? What's so scary about open market competition for liquor sales? It works in lots of other jurisdictions.

Bruce_E_T Bruce_E_T:

Government offers quality control, tax revenue and so called responsible pricing. Booze control is governing as far as I can see.

It seems we disagree, fundamentally, on the role of government. I'm not sure what "quality control" the government offers. I suppose you could argue that the LC more carefully monitors sales to minors, but that's a dodgy argument at best. I don't know a single teenager who ever had much difficulty getting alcohol. We don't need a government retail monopoly to collect the excise tax. It works fine with tobacco and gasoline without a government distribution monopoly. The thread topic is, after all, "You're paying too much for booze". The easiest way to fix that is to get rid of the monopoly.

[EyeBrock]

The LCBO and Samsung windmills.

Socially responsible booze, meet socially responsible electricity.

Hopefully after paying for all this social responsibility I'll still have cash left over for Christmas presents, socially responsible ones of course.

[bootlegga]

Bruce_E_T Bruce_E_T:

Lemmy Lemmy:

The purpose of government isn't to sell booze. It's to govern.

Not so fast. The question is if the government does not sell booze who does? What do you go with? Prohibition, which will almost certainly not work or some sort of open market competitive production which sounds downright scary.

Government offers quality control, tax revenue and so called responsible pricing. Booze control is governing as far as I can see.

I've lived in Alberta most of my life, and remember the difference between ALCB (Alberta Liquor Control Board) stores and the current privatized ones here.

As Lemmy notes, the Alberta government still maintains a monopoly on alcohol - liquor stores can only buy alcohol from the government, then sell it to the public. It's illegal here for a liquor store to buy icewine directly from a Niagara producer (or anyone else for that matter).

The only real difference is that the government doesn't sell it retail - it lets private business do that, which is far better IMHO. Back in the day, liquor stores had crappy hours, were never open on Sundays or holidays, and staff was unionized (which meant they earned big bucks).

Nowadays, liquor stores are open far longer (some into the wee hours of the night) and are far more plentiful in number. The prices are about the same (adjusted for inflation) and selection doesn't seem as good as it was in the past (no matter what the AGLC says on it website), but I'd guess that's largely due to the size of liquor stores. The old ALCB ones were usually pretty big (a couple thousand sq ft or so), say as big as a Gap or something like that, whereas most liquor stores these days are much smaller (about half the size or smaller), maybe the size of convenience store. There are some that are as large (or larger) than the old ALCB stores, but they are fewer in number than the majority of liquor stores.

I don't buy a lot of booze, but it is nice to know that if I plan on building a deck in my backyard, I don't have to devote a chunk of my day to buying beer for my buddies - I just stop at any store after work and pick up what I need.

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Bruce_E_T Bruce_E_T:

Lemmy Lemmy:

The purpose of government isn't to sell booze. It's to govern.

Not so fast. The question is if the government does not sell booze who does? What do you go with? Prohibition, which will almost certainly not work or some sort of open market competitive production which sounds downright scary.

Government offers quality control, tax revenue and so called responsible pricing. Booze control is governing as far as I can see.

I've lived in Alberta most of my life, and remember the difference between ALCB (Alberta Liquor Control Board) stores and the current privatized ones here.

. . .

The prices are about the same (adjusted for inflation) and selection doesn't seem as good as it was in the past (no matter what the AGLC says on it website), but I'd guess that's largely due to the size of liquor stores.

I think the selection is much greater, but it varies store to store. There are the 'Lucky 77 Liquor' kind of stores that have basic beer and hard liquor, but there are also specialty stores that we didn't have before. Like that Wine store on Jasper ave. 10 different kinds of Aussie Shiraz, where the old ALCBs used to only have 1 (Bin 555) if you were lucky. Some really good specialty beer stores that carry some really excellent microbrews, same for Whisky.

We came to expect at the ALCB; Canadian Club, Crown Royal, Alberta Rye, Jack Daniels, A Johnny Walker Black Label, a Red Label in the larger outlets, and perhaps a specialty Whisky, 20 year old CC or something unique. Now, there are so many types that I'd never heard of before the stores went private. Walls filled with all kinds of Rye, Scotch, Irish and Burbon to tease the pallette. And that's not counting Vodkas, Rums, Tequila . . .

Too bad it didn't work that way for electricity deregulation, eh?

[Freakinoldguy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Well, even if it is a pretext for a cash-grab, I don't mind. The LCBO is one of the biggest money-makers for the province, More than $1 Billion in sales revenue contributed to provincial coffers annually if I recall. Every dollar they generate is one dollar less that needs come from taxes.

It is and if you're fine paying their prices then so be it. Your choice, but what I took issue with was their attempt to link their high prices to creating socially responsible drinking which is a bit of a fallacy.

People who are gonna abuse alcohol aren't gonna worry about the price cause you can buy the cheap crap or make your own. There's still alot of that cheap assed cooking wine that kicks like a mule still left in China Town.