[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

Very true. And that Goldman Sachs colluded with the Greek govt to hide those debts so they would be admitted to the EU. Germany also has strong social spending and unions, but they don't face what the greeks are because they actually pay their taxes.

Exactly. I'm not going to say banks are totally innocent, and there was some very juicy fuckups, but banks alone didn't cause this. Your banker being a criminal asshole still doesn't change the fact that you're spending more than you're making, which, well, is bad.

$1:

How is that different than the situation now? Time for investors to take a haircut and for Greeks to actually pay their taxes and the civil service to be rationalized and pensionable age to be increased to at least what it is in Germany. If Greece wasn't in the Euro zone, it would have defaulted long ago, like Argentina did, like the US has done, and be working it's way back to better financial health.

But see, if you just want investors/banks to get a haircut, without the austerity measures and a more secure tax system, then you're just making a serious problem even worse. If the Greek government did what the Professor stated, Greek would be in an extremely worse state, since foreign capital will be hugely unwilling to invest money in a country that won't make sacrifices to protect its financial security.

I know investors and banks are going to take a hit, but anybody who thinks that the Greek government and people weren't responsible for this as well is crazy.

[andyt]

You didn't read thoroughly enough. I mention a more secure tax system and austerity measures. But, or course, I think those measures should his the rich the hardest. Don't know what the case is in Greece, but usually govts prefer to go after the lower income folks. Not because that's where the money is, but because that's where the power isn't. And the thing with the Greek bailouts is that they are all about avoiding hair cuts for the investors while demanding strict austerity which only depresses the Greek economy further. As usual, losses are socialized while the average joe takes the hit.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

You didn't read thoroughly enough. I mention a more secure tax system and austerity measures. But, or course, I think those measures should his the rich the hardest. Don't know what the case is in Greece, but usually govts prefer to go after the lower income folks. Not because that's where the money is, but because that's where the power isn't.

I know you did. Prof Chomsky didn't. That's what I was originally addressing. Sorry if that carried over to you.

[andyt]

That's Ok. I know to you all us lefties look the same. I do the inverse often enough.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

That's Ok. I know to you all us lefties look the same. I do the inverse often enough.

Nah, more that I need my sleep. Plus just saying I agree for the most part, except for Y detail would be rather boring. Plus, that display picture distinguishes you from most lefties on this site

[andyt]

That's because I'm only a relative lefty. I think at the moment it's definitely time for a move to the left. If we achieve that, at some point no doubt it will be time for a push back to the right. And then we do the timewarp again.

[Prof_Chomsky]

Yeah so there are way too many points to address them all specifically.
Sure I disagree some poorer EU nation with crappier benefits and retirement age etc should be bailing out Greece, it’s criminal… but the only reason that is happening is it’s easier to make the peons of Latvia pay then the super rich who stole the money in the first place. The rest of the EU nations should be joining forces with Greece to make the banks pay what they stole, and let the investors eat a loss rather then making their own people bail out a foreign country.


I also fundamentally disagree with the notion that holding banks accountable for CRIMINAL activity would destroy the markets or cost common folk their savings. The US has nationalized banks in the past, as have many other countries. And criminal investigations have landed many a banker in jail too. You just nationalize the bank in trust so all deposits are secured, file the criminal investigation, pay the fines, then hold that bank as a national asset until its made retribution and is liquid and profitable again.

It’s just sickening to see the same old pattern time and time again. If you’re rich or powerful, you can’t lose. Workers will be forced to bail you out. If you’re a common worker, sucks to be you. Work harder, longer and for less because you have no real power.

[martin14]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I find it kind of funny that a mob of leftists are protesting a tax increase. Obviously, this is the work of the Greek chapter of the Tea Party.

Had a coffee with a Greek friend today, proposed him we should go to Athens,
make placards criticizing the government for not cutting enough,
and see how long we last.


Told him if we lasted 10 minutes, I would pay him 1000 euros.. he didn't accept.

[BartSimpson]

martin14 martin14:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I find it kind of funny that a mob of leftists are protesting a tax increase. Obviously, this is the work of the Greek chapter of the Tea Party.

Had a coffee with a Greek friend today, proposed him we should go to Athens,
make placards criticizing the government for not cutting enough,
and see how long we last.


Told him if we lasted 10 minutes, I would pay him 1000 euros.. he didn't accept.

I'd do it just for the lulz of being able to kick in some scumbag heads and have a valid excuse for doing so.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

martin14 martin14:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I find it kind of funny that a mob of leftists are protesting a tax increase. Obviously, this is the work of the Greek chapter of the Tea Party.

Had a coffee with a Greek friend today, proposed him we should go to Athens,
make placards criticizing the government for not cutting enough,
and see how long we last.


Told him if we lasted 10 minutes, I would pay him 1000 euros.. he didn't accept.

I'd do it just for the lulz of being able to kick in some scumbag heads and have a valid excuse for doing so.

[martin14]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

martin14 martin14:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I find it kind of funny that a mob of leftists are protesting a tax increase. Obviously, this is the work of the Greek chapter of the Tea Party.

Had a coffee with a Greek friend today, proposed him we should go to Athens,
make placards criticizing the government for not cutting enough,
and see how long we last.


Told him if we lasted 10 minutes, I would pay him 1000 euros.. he didn't accept.

I'd do it just for the lulz of being able to kick in some scumbag heads and have a valid excuse for doing so.

We would need you.. and about 100 of your friends.. loaded for bear..


It is also a free press problem; since 1974, the Greek press has been dominated
by a few people, usually being paid by the government to hush up the truth on many
different issues, not just the economy.

Bodes well for Italy.