[CDN_PATRIOT]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I think Canada needs to put Canada first. We should be letting people in who will add to the country, not take from it. We shouldn't be changing to 'accommodate' newcomers, they should be doing the changing.

I've been preaching this for years with mixed results.


-J.

[herbie]

You easterners didn't grow up with Chinook and pidgin? Skookum!
How would I know I'm at KFC without "Solly no bless owny duk mit"?
I em missus deelon you type job resume sound right only five dollars? Right?

[Kitsune_H]

I'm quite grateful that my parents, despite being portuguese immigrants, always spoke in English when I was young, back in Ontario. I can't help but feel that it happens too often that language becomes not just a barrier against integration, but a factor for cultural barricading in Canada. By cultural barricading, I mean how some immigrants rarely have to use english or french, since they have the possibility of living in Canada while interacting solely in their native language, with immigrants from the same country as themselves.

I'm a clinical psychologist, not an educational psychologist, but I do know the basics, or at least those needed to make a semi-rational response to this.

Language is a process of codification and decodification of ideas, through the means of a determined set of symbols. These symbols may be aural (spoken word, sounds), or visual (writing, sign language, symbols). And, for all linguistic methods, as well as for input and output, different parts of the brain are used. In my practice at a geriatric home, I've seen several cases that exemplify this: an old lady who could understand what we said, but couldn't find the words to express most basic thoughts. People who can hear us clearly, but cannot understand a language unless it's written.

So, we must conclude that, in order to test someone to see if they are fluent in a language, we must test not speech and writing, but oral comprehension, oral expression, written comprehension, and written expression. Four factors, not two.

It is possible that a written test and the bureaucratic necessities are good enough a predictor of acceptable comprehension levels, but not to certify the immigrant for the level of expression needed for full interaction. Actually, one could argue that conversational french or english is overwhelmingly more important than a baseline knowledge of Canadian culture.

Another fault of the current test for Canadian Citizenship is, as Martin14 pointed out, is the effect of memorization. One can memorize facts about Canadian geography and history, or even law, but that memorization does not correlate directly to abstract rationality, the capability of a candidate to "think within the culture", or see how the cultural norms apply to their particular situation. In other words, just because you know the law, doesn't mean you know how to behave.

All in all, the language tests have to ensure that the candidate could function in a purely Canadian society, fully interacting with other people in one of the official languages. So, of course, they need to be reformulated, and the difficulty needs to be kicked up a notch.

[jeff744]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

jeff744 jeff744:

$1:

"If you've ever looked at the citizenship guide, you have to have a pretty good knowledge of English or French to get through and understand it," said Berger. "The citizenship test has proven the test of time."

Berger said immigration officials' claim that the current test is not adequate for assessing listening and speaking skills is irrelevant, as applicants have the option to listen to the citizenship guide on the ministry's website.

"That would be a measure of your listening abilities," he said.

David Matas, a Winnipeg-based immigration lawyer, said the new rules make application processing easier for the federal government, while making the application more cumbersome for immigrants.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/ ... /index.asp
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/ ... stions.asp

That looks pretty freaking hard to me and English is my first language.

Looked a bit further and the current test fails about 20% of those that take it (they made it easier as the first revision had a 30% failure rate), the ones that fail then go through a citizenship judge who determines if they know enough (and obviously they would have to speak English/french to answer) and 20% fail that as well.

How many immigrants do you know that speak English well versus the number that can't?

The personal chat with an immigration judge is a thing of the past. I got sworn in with about 800 others 10 years ago in a mass ceremony. No chat.

The 'test' was a joke and took me about 4 minutes to complete. It was fun watching the rest who were being 'tested' openly cheat and get help from friends and family without any body enforcing the rules.

The old test had a 4% fail rate, they revised it and had 30%, they had to revise again because it was too hard so now 20% fail. They are a lot stricter than when you went through.

[EyeBrock]

That maybe so Jeff but millions came through under the old system. That's millions of citizens who can barely speak either official language.

[martin14]

Funny, 2 people can tell Jeff that test isnt enough by a long shot,
and he still won't get it.. still keeps harping on it.

Kitsune_H Kitsune_H:

I'm a clinical psychologist, not an educational psychologist, but I do know the basics, or at least those needed to make a semi-rational response to this.



Another fault of the current test for Canadian Citizenship is, as Martin14 pointed out, is the effect of memorization.

A pyschologist agrees with me.... well, I'm fucked now.


And the same, my parents left the old country, including the language,
where it belongs... at the fucking airport.

[jeff744]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

That maybe so Jeff but millions came through under the old system. That's millions of citizens who can barely speak either official language.

We can't stop that now anyways, they are already here but the new system has a much higher fail rate, they are also harder on cheating. Heck, I deal with immigrants all the time, they all have a pretty good grasp of English and often times the ones that don't make up for it by being pretty smart (I prefer the hard to understand immigrant over the person that is confused trying to alphabetize stuff).

I looked over that study guide, without knowing English you would be fucked, there is no way you could memorize everything when it is in a language you do not understand.

[martin14]

Lots of singers do it.

[jeff744]

martin14 martin14:

Lots of singers do it.

How many singers take the test on a yearly basis? Is it enough to make it impossible for people with a decent grasp of English/French fail for not knowing enough of it? Then there is the fact that they will be immersed in an English/French speaking culture, they will end up learning more of the language just by going shopping.

[BigBri]

I live in Regina,Sk...can anyone here tell me why someone from Somalia and Sudan ends up here,on welfare and two of them can't even speak English.

[martin14]

jeff744 jeff744:

martin14 martin14:

Lots of singers do it.

How many singers take the test on a yearly basis? Is it enough to make it impossible for people with a decent grasp of English/French fail for not knowing enough of it?

Just can't accept someone proving you wrong.

$1:

Then there is the fact that they will be immersed in an English/French speaking culture, they will end up learning more of the language just by going shopping.

This is a myth, and a pretty bad one, too.

[jeff744]

Their employment rates seem to be doing pretty well considering when we had a rush of 60,000 Vietnamese refugees in the 70/80's with few even speaking English or French within 10 years 2.3% were unemployed, 20% started their own businesses, and 99% were citizens and were less likely to be on social assistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_i ... Employment

And before you go "LOL, wikipedia" they do offer good information when it has cited sources like the part I used.

[jeff744]

martin14 martin14:

jeff744 jeff744:

martin14 martin14:

Lots of singers do it.

How many singers take the test on a yearly basis? Is it enough to make it impossible for people with a decent grasp of English/French fail for not knowing enough of it?

Just can't accept someone proving you wrong.

$1:

Then there is the fact that they will be immersed in an English/French speaking culture, they will end up learning more of the language just by going shopping.

This is a myth, and a pretty bad one, too.

Really? I'll go and tell my immigrant friends to stop learning English since they aren't supposed to. Actually, I better tell our schools system language immersion doesn't work at all either.

[EyeBrock]

jeff744 jeff744:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

That maybe so Jeff but millions came through under the old system. That's millions of citizens who can barely speak either official language.

We can't stop that now anyways, they are already here but the new system has a much higher fail rate, they are also harder on cheating. Heck, I deal with immigrants all the time, they all have a pretty good grasp of English and often times the ones that don't make up for it by being pretty smart (I prefer the hard to understand immigrant over the person that is confused trying to alphabetize stuff).

I looked over that study guide, without knowing English you would be fucked, there is no way you could memorize everything when it is in a language you do not understand.

I'm glad to hear that Jeff. My process was quite dis-heartening but I recognise that changes have come about. It's less taboo than it once was to challenge to immigration system.

I'm all for the best from all over the world coming here, that's not we've been getting in the past. Communication is key to being a success in Canada and maximum points should be given to people who can speak one or both of our languages over supposed higher education.

[jeff744]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

jeff744 jeff744:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

That maybe so Jeff but millions came through under the old system. That's millions of citizens who can barely speak either official language.

We can't stop that now anyways, they are already here but the new system has a much higher fail rate, they are also harder on cheating. Heck, I deal with immigrants all the time, they all have a pretty good grasp of English and often times the ones that don't make up for it by being pretty smart (I prefer the hard to understand immigrant over the person that is confused trying to alphabetize stuff).

I looked over that study guide, without knowing English you would be fucked, there is no way you could memorize everything when it is in a language you do not understand.

I'm glad to hear that Jeff. My process was quite dis-heartening but I recognise that changes have come about. It's less taboo than it once was to challenge to immigration system.

I'm all for the best from all over the world coming here, that's not we've been getting in the past. Communication is key to being a success in Canada and maximum points should be given to people who can speak one or both of our languages over supposed higher education.

Actually, Albert and Sask just need more immigrants period. Our cities are actually running out of people to employ, the people that are unemployed are generally handicapped in some form or deadbeats. I used to work at Denny's, they were forced to bring in three cooks from Bangladesh because there were not enough people applying for the job.