[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

Waterfront is precious, they're not making it anymore. You want to leave a lasting legacy for something like that, not just sell it to the developers to make a buck.

Andy, you don't have a clue.

It's been a shit-hole for the last 50 years. It's been a place where people drive to dump garbage illegally or have sex in their cars because it's deserted.

Waterfront Toronto's plan is to sell off a ton of land to developers for condo's and retail space anyways.

Different visions by different people.

No, not for condos and retail space...there will be some of that, but there will be parks, recreation areas, a conservation area, and more. The whole point is to clean up the shit-hole.

You can build a mall anywhere on the earth..why the hell would you build one on the on scarce lakeshore land, where everyone is going to be primarily indoors and unable to even see the lake. They'll be buying things from chain stores that are already located all over the city anyways.

The difference between Ford's plan and the current is that Ford wants to turn it into a disney land for people who live somewhere else, and not even a good one at that that, as opposed to a living space for people who live in the city. So instead of a mega mall, the current plan includes "community retail" ie grocery stores, small, local shops, etc. Instead of luxury hotel that you can fly a jetpack into or whatever the hell else Ford dreams up, the current plan calls for moderate density mixed-income residential communities, live-work lofts, ample park lands,conservation areas, etc.

Tourism brings in major dollars to the City of Toronto. I know Torontonians have a hard time looking outside the City, because nothing really else matters, but tourism can have a major affect on your bottom line.

Ford's plan does include park land, bike trails and all the other shit to keep the tree huggers happy, but I doubt you even read what it was all about.

Selling "community retail" requires an actual community to support such retail. Hence the large amounts of space being sold to developers for both residential and retail space.

Tourism is a win/win for Toronto. Lots of jobs and continual tax income from commercial properties and tax from visitors to Toronto. Frankly, tourism in Toronto sucks.....you have 1 building that's not the tallest in the World anymore.

And Toronto needs money....lots of it.

Just curious, how much more tax are you willing to pay to balance the books of Toronto?

[BartSimpson]

eureka eureka:

I don't propose anything that would work better. I don't think there is. But perhaps there should be some mandatory requirements and qualifications for the possession of the Right to vote.

Mandatory attendance at forums that discuss the issues in any campaign?

Heck, maybe Mill was correct in musing about the number of votes related to education levels. I have met many educated twits but it would certainly cut into Right Wing Republican electoral support in your country and into the CPC here.

I attempt a rational discussion and you respond with an insult.

Nice.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Tourism brings in major dollars to the City of Toronto. I know Torontonians have a hard time looking outside the City, because nothing really else matters, but tourism can have a major affect on your bottom line.

A Ferris wheel and a big mall are not tourist magnets...they are diversions for people who are already here for other resaons. They're are not going to come from far and wide to gawk at the Footlocker and eat in a foodcourt. Even if you think a mega-mall is a great idea for a tourist magnet, whey the hell would you waste scarce land and put it on the waterfront? There are alot better places for it that wouldn't eliminate prime real-estate. And do you really think visitors are going to flock here to ride a Ferris wheel? And the sail-in hotel is too limited in its appeal to attract enough pepole for it to be economically significant, especially since those rich enough to afford it would probably be put off by the mall and Ferris wheel.

$1:

Ford's plan does include park land, bike trails and all the other shit to keep the tree huggers happy, but I doubt you even read what it was all about.

And I bet the words "and all the other shit to keep the tree huggers happy" is probably a direct quote from it. But here's the thing: once the land is sold off to the highest bidder, Ford can't guarantee any of his "vision" will come true. The idea that it call all be built with private financing and in less than a decade is laughable. Just as his claims about building a Sheppard Line extension with private financing proved to be laughable. And how his "I wont raise taxes and wont cut services" promise is also proving to be false. But I'll give Ford credit: I dont think he's a politican who makes false promises for his own purposes. He's just too uneducated and anti-intellectual to realize that his ideas are out-of-touch with reality. I know he really wants to just sell the land and Waterfront TO's capital assets so he can salvage his failing promise to "balance the books" without taxes and cuts. But I think he thinks his plan is also responsible and realistic, which is not...not by a long shot.

$1:

Selling "community retail" requires an actual community to support such retail. Hence the large amounts of space being sold to developers for both residential and retail space.

Ya but Ford's plan is suburban-style big box retail aka a mega-mall, not the community retail envisioned by Waterfront TO. Walk around Cabbagetown or Little Italy or the Danforth and you'll understand urban community retail. It's owner-operated restaurants that have an actual chef (or at least a talented foodie) behind the counter, not some tacky chain resatuarant where a "kitchen manager" oversees minimum wage line cooks following generic recipes, faxed in from corporate HQ twice a year. It's local butchers and bakers and candlestick makers selling their crafts to residents who live across the street and in the building above their shops, not a Supermart with a 40-acre parking lot and a whole aisle dedicated to frozen pizzas. It's neighbourhood pubs and cafes where the neighbourhood locals gather on weeknights for a few pints after work or coffee and cake after dinner, not an anoymous Timmie's drive-thru where strangers honk at eachother and yell into a box while waiting for mass-produced junk.

$1:

Tourism is a win/win for Toronto. Lots of jobs and continual tax income from commercial properties and tax from visitors to Toronto. Frankly, tourism in Toronto sucks.....you have 1 building that's not the tallest in the World anymore.

As discussed this will hardly be a major tourism draw. Not interesting enough to draw people from afar, but just interesting enough for the suburbanites to kill time while waiting to catch a Raptors game. And it does nothing for those of us who live here. And the jobs are low-end retail and service sector jobs, something that's not in short supply anyway.

$1:

Just curious, how much more tax are you willing to pay to balance the books of Toronto?

I'm prepared to pay more than I'm paying now. But lets get someone with more than 1 year of post-secondary schooling running the show first, then we'll talk.

[Gunnair]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

eureka eureka:

I don't propose anything that would work better. I don't think there is. But perhaps there should be some mandatory requirements and qualifications for the possession of the Right to vote.

Mandatory attendance at forums that discuss the issues in any campaign?

Heck, maybe Mill was correct in musing about the number of votes related to education levels. I have met many educated twits but it would certainly cut into Right Wing Republican electoral support in your country and into the CPC here.

I attempt a rational discussion and you respond with an insult.

Nice.

SOP really for this guy.

Fire back and watch the left side froth at the affront though.

[eureka]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

eureka eureka:

I don't propose anything that would work better. I don't think there is. But perhaps there should be some mandatory requirements and qualifications for the possession of the Right to vote.

Mandatory attendance at forums that discuss the issues in any campaign?

Heck, maybe Mill was correct in musing about the number of votes related to education levels. I have met many educated twits but it would certainly cut into Right Wing Republican electoral support in your country and into the CPC here.

I attempt a rational discussion and you respond with an insult.

Nice.

Where is the insult? I responded with serious thoughts. Most political philosophers and political scientists are not enamoured of democracy as a system of government. They just, as I indicated, do not know what could replace it.

I am suggesting that democracy is only viable when citizens know what is going on and have the background education to process information.

That is serious and the schools should be taking note. The average voter is about as aware as a baboon and more emotional.

[Gunnair]

I think he took offence at the part in bold where you seem to take a very partisan swipe at conservatives.

Is that a misunderstanding?

[eureka]

Possibly it is. I do not take swipes at conservatives, though. I have, long ago, co-managed the campaign of a Conservative candidate.

The Right Wing of the Republican Party in the US and the CPC in Canada are not conservative. They are about as close to conservative philosophy as Left
Wing Socialists are to liberalism.

[Gunnair]

eureka eureka:

Possibly it is. I do not take swipes at conservatives, though. I have, long ago, co-managed the campaign of a Conservative candidate.

The Right Wing of the Republican Party in the US and the CPC in Canada are not conservative. They are about as close to conservative philosophy as Left
Wing Socialists are to liberalism.

Conservatives might disagree with you.

[Mustang1]

Gunnair Gunnair:

eureka eureka:

Possibly it is. I do not take swipes at conservatives, though. I have, long ago, co-managed the campaign of a Conservative candidate.

The Right Wing of the Republican Party in the US and the CPC in Canada are not conservative. They are about as close to conservative philosophy as Left
Wing Socialists are to liberalism.

Conservatives might disagree with you.

I'd say more than just conservatives.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

eureka eureka:

I have always approved of Ford. I think he is the best standup comedian I have seen in years.

He is, sadly, the prime example of several in Canada at this time of why democracy does not work well. Voters are easily seduced by unrealistic promises of tax cuts that will not hurt society and by raising fantasy demons to slay.

We saw it with Harris and the Ontario wrecking crew. We saw it with Harper and the same wrecking crew expanded. We see it with a softer sell in Hudak.

Ah I see, so whenever the rightwing gets into office, democracy sucks. Well thanks for stopping by and littering this thread with more of your partisan garbage. Now, how did McGuinty get to be Premier again? Something about unrealistic promises of not raising taxes? How did Chretien get to be PM? Something about scrapping the much hated GST?
But yeah, you left-tards don't like bringing up the shit your side does do you?

You could save yourself a fair bit of time by making a macro that you can use to post, "Rightwing bad, leftwing good" everytime the opportunity for partisan posting arises.

[eureka]

Or we could just make a bumper sticker quoting Mill. "Not all conservatives are stupid people, but all stupid people are conservatives."

Where is the "conservatism" of the CPC? A Party bent on remaking Canada in its own image; on making it more like the USA -as Harper has said many times in speeches to American audiences. How is reversing social progress by taking Canada back to the bad old days of great economic disparities, conserving anything.

If anything, Conservatism from the mid 19th. century on has been about slowing down progress long enough to make sure it is progress and not change for change's sake. It has been about conserving real progress.

That all changed with Thatcher and Reaganism. Conservatism became about the attack of the wealthy and privileged on the Middle and Lower Classes. It became about taking back privilege and wealth for the already privileged. Orwell had it right, but did not see it broadly enough when he said that "Fascism is the counter attack of Capitalism on the Unions."

Every society needs an interlude of conservatism after years of progressive government in order to catch its breath and assess the results.

They do not need "Tea Parties" and "Reform."

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

A Ferris wheel and a big mall are not tourist magnets...they are diversions for people who are already here for other resaons. They're are not going to come from far and wide to gawk at the Footlocker and eat in a foodcourt. Even if you think a mega-mall is a great idea for a tourist magnet, whey the hell would you waste scarce land and put it on the waterfront? There are alot better places for it that wouldn't eliminate prime real-estate. And do you really think visitors are going to flock here to ride a Ferris wheel? And the sail-in hotel is too limited in its appeal to attract enough pepole for it to be economically significant, especially since those rich enough to afford it would probably be put off by the mall and Ferris wheel.

I'm sure you're not aware, but the Ferris wheel isn't something that came from the Fords. It was proposed to Waterfront Toronto long before the Ford was the Mayor.

You act like this land is some jewel. It's heavily contaminated soil on a parcel of land that's been a virtual shit-hole for decades. Why not make some money from it?

You don't think people will come for a mega mall? Ask Edmonton about that. The Ferris wheel, 3.75 million people per year visit the wheel in London. Only 1.5 million to 1.7 million per year visit the CN Tower.

Both will be a big draw an input tons of cash for Toronto. Drop in a casino down there for good measure.

$1:

Ya but Ford's plan is suburban-style big box retail aka a mega-mall, not the community retail envisioned by Waterfront TO. Walk around Cabbagetown or Little Italy or the Danforth and you'll understand urban community retail. It's owner-operated restaurants that have an actual chef (or at least a talented foodie) behind the counter, not some tacky chain resatuarant where a "kitchen manager" oversees minimum wage line cooks following generic recipes, faxed in from corporate HQ twice a year. It's local butchers and bakers and candlestick makers selling their crafts to residents who live across the street and in the building above their shops, not a Supermart with a 40-acre parking lot and a whole aisle dedicated to frozen pizzas. It's neighbourhood pubs and cafes where the neighbourhood locals gather on weeknights for a few pints after work or coffee and cake after dinner, not an anoymous Timmie's drive-thru where strangers honk at eachother and yell into a box while waiting for mass-produced junk.

Just more assumptions. You have no idea what restaurants or retail will be in there in either case, so you're going with the worst case scenario to sell your point.

$1:

As discussed this will hardly be a major tourism draw. Not interesting enough to draw people from afar, but just interesting enough for the suburbanites to kill time while waiting to catch a Raptors game. And it does nothing for those of us who live here. And the jobs are low-end retail and service sector jobs, something that's not in short supply anyway.

Clearly, you're not up on your tourism info and how much money and people things like this will draw.

$1:

I'm prepared to pay more than I'm paying now. But lets get someone with more than 1 year of post-secondary schooling running the show first, then we'll talk.

What does it matter? You just had a Harvard grad that screwed your city. He added 2 billion to the Cities debt, extended the repayment to burden our kids (30 years compared to 10) and raised spending and taxes massively.

It wouldn't matter if Santa Claus was in office right now, you'd be facing a massive deficit and a huge tax increase.

But who cares right? Debt means nothing to leftards.

[Gunnair]

eureka eureka:

Or we could just make a bumper sticker quoting Mill. "Not all conservatives are stupid people, but all stupid people are conservatives."

"Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains." - Winston Churchill

Yeah. Quote games.

It's a bit of a leap to consider modern conservatism as a front for an active assault on the middle class.


But hey, it certainly seem to be the fall back position for the extreme left to rally around.

[Gunnair]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Gunnair Gunnair:

eureka eureka:

Possibly it is. I do not take swipes at conservatives, though. I have, long ago, co-managed the campaign of a Conservative candidate.

The Right Wing of the Republican Party in the US and the CPC in Canada are not conservative. They are about as close to conservative philosophy as Left
Wing Socialists are to liberalism.

Conservatives might disagree with you.

I'd say more than just conservatives.

Careful though. It seems man handling the left these days (after being manhandled by them) causes no end of ire and angst.

Must tread carefully.

[eureka]

Why is it a leap? The evidence is plain to see. The Middle Classes are shrinking in all countries that have suffered the scourge of "modern conservatism." The disparities in income and wealth are increasing in those countries.

In those countries that have not capitulated, Sweden, Denmark etc: where Unionism is strong (85% in Sweden), the Middle Classes are not disappearing, Poverty is lower; in the case of Denmark, about one fifth of the North American and British rate.

It is neocon and neolib philosophies that are causing the decline of both civil society and economic security.

What is conservative about that?