[Freakinoldguy]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I think you have it wrong FOG. Chretien went looking for cheap solutions for the CF's procurement problems in that decade of darknesss.

I don't think the the UK's MOD went banging on doors to sell these boats. The Canadian PM of the time made this deal.

Really, who would buy boats that had been moored for 8 years?

Misplaced anger mate. Redirect to the Chretien government.

Nothing personal here, but, when do ethics comes into play?

Just because some moron wants to buy something cheap do you as a seller have the moral obligation to tell them that because of price they'll be buying a piece of crap that you only used for 4 years because of problems or do you say nothing and laugh all the way to the bank?

$1:

Everyone in Canadian naval planning circles realized that some refurbishment would be required to make the Upholders seaworthy again. But no one foresaw the magnitude of the work that would actually be involved.

Although the Upholders are newer than the 40-year-old Oberon-class boats that our sailors used to operate, the British subs had never been on the navy's wish list as a replacement. It was common knowledge that the Brits were having a lot of teething trouble with their Upholder design. Meanwhile, the Dutch, German, French, Swedish and Australian navies were all developing superior submarines

And the magic answer is.

If you're British you say nothing and let the moron walk away thinking he got a deal all the while knowing that he's gonna spend a fortune to make something that was to costly for you to repair, useable.

So while the Chretien Government is definately to blame for purchasing these albatross, the British Government while doing nothing illegal, has no more moral ground to stand on than that used car salesman I mentioned earlier.

[EyeBrock]

FOG, Canada approached the UK about buying those boats and the UK looked to use that interest to offset it's costs at BATUS.

When I was at CFB Goose Bay the CF nickle and dimed us for everything they could. We didn't return the favour when we opened our hangar to the odd CF aircraft. I remember them jamming us $2000 for 'hangar heating' when we had a sick Herc on their side.

We were being charged so much to use a CF Griffon on a Tornado down recovery that we ended up renting a civvy chopper for a quarter of the price to do it.

Ethics indeed.

[Gunnair]

If Canada wants to lay the blame on anyone for a batch of lame subs, lay the blame on ourselves. We wanted gear on the cheap and buying a fourpack of decommisioned SSGs that had been sitting for years had red flags all over it. That being said, the expensive example of the Collins class in Australia was a frightening propect as well.
Couldawouldashoulda bought nucs or purpose built SSGs but what can we say... cheap.

Bashing the Brits is useless. Let's bash our government instead... you know, the ones that couldn't then and now be bothered to sink real money into national defence thereby making us continuie to ass suck our southern neighbors to keep us safe.

[Freakinoldguy]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

FOG, Canada approached the UK about buying those boats and the UK looked to use that interest to offset it's costs at BATUS.

When I was at CFB Goose Bay the CF nickle and dimed us for everything they could. We didn't return the favour when we opened our hangar to the odd CF aircraft. I remember them jamming us $2000 for 'hangar heating' when we had a sick Herc on their side.

We were being charged so much to use a CF Griffon on a Tornado down recovery that we ended up renting a civvy chopper for a quarter of the price to do it.

Ethics indeed.

Oh I agree, if we were indeed charging you guys a long ton for the use of a bases and helicopters then our Government was about as ethical as yours and it was likely just Karma that we got hosed for trying to buy something so cheap even Britan wouldn't fix it.

But, given the facts in the whole sordid affair, I wonder when Karma is gonna get you guys?

[EyeBrock]

Hey, I'm a Canadian now mate. And on karma, if you guys wanted to buy them, the Brits will sell them. It's not at all unusual for old/decommissioned ships to be sold off. Those boats would have been scrapped if Chretien hadn't procured them.

At the end of the day the CF got the rough end of the stick because of Chretien, not the UK.

Canada still charges a chunk of cash for BATUS. With the UK military entering it's own 'decade of darkness' I wonder how long they will be paying for that base.

[Freakinoldguy]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Hey, I'm a Canadian now mate. And on karma, if you guys wanted to buy them, the Brits will sell them. It's not at all unusual for old/decommissioned ships to be sold off. Those boats would have been scrapped if Chretien hadn't procured them.

At the end of the day the CF got the rough end of the stick because of Chretien, not the UK.

Canada still charges a chunk of cash for BATUS. With the UK military entering it's own 'decade of darkness' I wonder how long they will be paying for that base.

Nice to see it was a no win situation for everyone.

We can only hope that next time the Liberals form a government and try procurement on the cheap, for something the Navy doesn't even want, I'll be long gone and with that being said, I do plan on living for at least 30 more years.

[EyeBrock]

Too right mate!

Cheers back!

[Gunnair]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Hey, I'm a Canadian now mate. And on karma, if you guys wanted to buy them, the Brits will sell them. It's not at all unusual for old/decommissioned ships to be sold off. Those boats would have been scrapped if Chretien hadn't procured them.

At the end of the day the CF got the rough end of the stick because of Chretien, not the UK.

Canada still charges a chunk of cash for BATUS. With the UK military entering it's own 'decade of darkness' I wonder how long they will be paying for that base.

Nice to see it was a no win situation for everyone.

We can only hope that next time the Liberals form a government and try procurement on the cheap, for something the Navy doesn't even want, I'll be long gone and with that being said, I do plan on living for at least 30 more years.

The CPC has shown no inclination to be any better.

[EyeBrock]

Not for the Navy no. But the Upholders were a Chretien issue, up there with the EH101.

[Gunnair]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Not for the Navy no. But the Upholders was a Chretien issue, up there with the EH101.

True enough. That being said, the rusty Upholders and crappy Cormorants are much better than the imaginary Artic Patrol Vessles and JSS...

[EyeBrock]

Gunnair Gunnair:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Not for the Navy no. But the Upholders was a Chretien issue, up there with the EH101.

True enough. That being said, the rusty Upholders and crappy Cormorants are much better than the imaginary Artic Patrol Vessles and JSS...

The Cormorants are a good aircraft. It's a pity it took so long to get them and $500 million of 1993 dollars would have bought quite a few more if wasn't paid out as a penalty to Eurocopter.

The Upholders, well, who the fuck thought that one up?

[Gunnair]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Gunnair Gunnair:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Not for the Navy no. But the Upholders was a Chretien issue, up there with the EH101.

True enough. That being said, the rusty Upholders and crappy Cormorants are much better than the imaginary Artic Patrol Vessles and JSS...

The Cormorants are a good aircraft. It's a pity it took so long to get them and $500 million of 1993 dollars would have bought quite a few more if wasn't paid out as a penalty to Eurocopter.

The Upholders, well, who the fuck thought that one up?

Cormorants have a lot of issues with cracks and spares.

[EyeBrock]

All choppers have issues with cracks Gunny. It's an aircraft that is trying to shake itself to bits. The more powerful the chopper, the more airframe/blade issues you get.
The CH-53E’s have a tough time holding together with those three T64’s trying to unseat every rivet and screw on the a/c.

The spares issue, well that could be a number of things.

I worked on the development of the 101 and it's a good kite. Bit of a sports car of a chopper. The Cormorant is the base model of the Corvette line. No leather seats or power locks but still fast as fuck.

[Gunnair]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

All choppers have issues with cracks Gunny. It's an aircraft that is trying to shake itself to bits. The more powerful the chopper, the more airframe/blade issues you get.
The CH-53E’s have a tough time holding together with those three T64’s trying to unseat every rivet and screw on the a/c.

The spares issue, well that could be a number of things.

I worked on the development of the 101 and it's a good kite. Bit of a sports car of a chopper. The Cormorant is the base model of the Corvette line. No leather seats or power locks but still fast as fuck.

$1:

Return in service of Cormorants delayed to 2014: Documents
By David Pugliese, Postmedia NewsJanuary 20, 2011
Cormorant search-and-rescue helicopters won't be available to cover Central Canada and parts of the West and the North until at least 2014 because of ongoing problems that have plagued the aircraft fleet, according to newly released Defence Department documents.


The use of the helicopters for such missions was temporarily suspended in 2005. But last year the Defence Department quietly extended that until 2014, according to the documents.


The area in question, equal to a million square kilometres, extends from the Prairies to Quebec and includes the Northwest Territories and much of Nunavut.


Instead, search-and-rescue crews flying out of Canadian Forces Base Trenton, Ont., will continue to use Griffon helicopters for those operations, despite critics' warning that the smaller helicopter doesn't have the capabilities for a large rescue operation.


"We warned DND that this wasn't a smart move," said John MacLennan, national president of the Union of National Defence Employees. His members used to service the helicopters at Trenton and the union obtained the Defence Department documents through the access to information law. "If anything ever happens on the Great Lakes, a Cormorant could rescue more than a dozen people, but a Griffon is very limited to what it can do."


Defence analyst Martin Shadwick noted that the helicopter situation for search-and-rescue crews is less than ideal. The Griffon is a smaller helicopter and the Cormorants are not always available because of ongoing mechanical difficulties, he added. Older Sea King helicopters were used in the fall to fill in for Cormorants on the East Coast because of mechanical problems.


"We have top-notch search-and-rescue crews, but the helicopters they have available leave a lot to be desired," Shadwick said.


He said that a Griffon was recently used to help stranded motorists in southern Ontario, but added such aircraft are of limited use in a search-and-rescue situation.


The Canadian Forces moved Cormorants to the east and west coasts for rescue duties.


According to the military, Canada is divided into three regions for the purposes of co-ordinating maritime and aeronautical search and rescue. CFB Trenton is responsible for incidents in the Prairie provinces, Ontario, Quebec, the Great Lakes, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, excluding the lower half of Baffin Island.


Military officers, however, have said if a Cormorant was needed to conduct a rescue in that region it could fly from either the west or east coast. But they acknowledge that takes extra time.


The availability of spare parts for the CH-149 Cormorant fleet, delivered to units starting in 2001 and 2002, remains a problem, military officers say.


Canada originally bought 15 Cormorants, but one has since crashed. The Cormorant helicopter fleet has faced a series of problems, including cracked windscreens and cracks in the tail rotor area. The aircraft have been hindered in their operations by the lack of spare parts.


"Cormorant availability has not improved enough to allow us to re-commence CH-149 operations at Trenton," noted one of the January 2010 documents sent from the air force to Dan Ross, assistant deputy minister of materiel.


"The (chief of the air force) staff has also advised that it will take approximately two to three years to generate the necessary CH-149 aircrew for Trenton; therefore, it is unlikely that Cormorant operations are possible at Trenton prior to 2014," it added.


Last year, union maintenance staff who had been working at Trenton were told their jobs with IMP, the company handling Cormorant maintenance, would be transferred to locations on the east and west coasts. The employees were given the option of moving, but MacLennan said most decided to quit and find other work.


The Defence Department didn't publicize its decision. The documents note that public affairs officials advising Ross planned to deal with the issue on a "reactive" basis, meaning that no announcement about the Cormorants would be made and information would be provided to journalists only if they found out what was happening.


As well, Lt.-Col. K.J. MacKenzie wrote in the documents that the military didn't anticipate much media interest or a "strong negative reaction" because the decision to move maintenance jobs from Trenton would be offset with increases in employment associated with the planned growth at the base to handle other aircraft programs.


Last year, the Defence Department confirmed it was looking at purchasing used helicopters from the U.S. to strip for parts for the Cormorants.


The helicopters had been ordered for U.S. President Barack Obama, but he decided to pull the plug on that program after the projected cost of the aircraft doubled.


There could be as many as eight of the helicopters available for sale.


The Cormorant and its variant, the EH-101, have had a long history on Canada's defence scene. In 1993, newly elected prime minister Jean Chretien cancelled a $5-billion contract to purchase the EH-101. He said Canada couldn't afford the helicopters ordered by the Conservatives and his government paid a $500-million penalty to get out of the contract.


Five years later, the air force selected the Cormorant — largely the same helicopter as the EH-101 — as their choice for a new search-and-rescue helicopter.


But several years ago, a Canadian military team determined that because of limited availability of the Cormorants, 18 of the helicopters were needed for the air force to perform the search-and-rescue role once handled by a smaller number of 40-year-old Labrador choppers.


The Labradors were phased out of service in 2004.

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