[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Of course at the same time you claim there is no temperature increase globally

You're thinking of someone else. I've acknowledged the anecdotal evidence of increased temperatures but have not gone so far as to blame those changes on human activity. And in the past few years the anecdotal evidence is indicating a decline in temperatures all while the "adjusted" temperatures put forth by AGW proponents continue to 'increase'.

Oh? Have you backed off that claim? You have constantly been the one putting forth various references to the unreliablity of the climate temp records (whiling putting faith in blogger reports that show its not warming up).

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

This year there's been record cold in localities all over the globe yet, somehow, the AGW crowd keeps insisting that it's warming globally.

See? You just posted about how you acknowledge increasing temps but then say you don't understand how AGW proponents can say that because it was cold in Miami.

2 different points of view. My answer is still the same. "Hottest year" and "Hottest decade" are for the whole earth and not just a few cities. That is why you guys can post tit-for-tat "coldest day in city X" stories when we post "hottest day in city Y" stories.

That media sensationalism (fueled by us because we constantly drive their hit counters way up) isn't being touted as evidence by the bonafide experts. They are the ones who understand the difference between a few cold/hot spots and a ever increasing global temperature.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

This summer in Australia it snowed.

This winter in Europe several rivers froze for the first time in decades. The Baltic has sea ice south of the Finnish islands for the first time in 300 years. China has had record cold. So has North America.

Frankly, I'm worried that global warming *isn't* happening and that it's about to be replaced by a cold period. If so, we're about to see famines on a global scale as the wheat crops of the Northern Hemisphere collapse.

Last weekend it was over 15 degrees here. People were out in shorts. Record highs all across the globe, lowest levels of snow fall (which is actually a function of precipitation more then temp). So what? This year will still be as hot as or warmer then the last.

Did it ever occur to you that what you are actually seeing when you get snow falls where none was before that you are seeing climate shifting and that shifting is likely a result of the increasing amounts of energy the earth keeps absorbing (since the CO2 traps more and more)?

Facts are facts. We have the data to support increasing global temperatures. We have the data to support increasing CO2 concentrations. We have the data to support the link between temperature and CO2 concentrations. We have the data to support human activity as the culprit behind increased CO2 concentrations.

The effects may be very much harder to determine but if you can imagine famine from colder temperatures then you should also imagine it caused by warmer temperatures especially since its more likely. Cooler temperatures generally mean the air can hold less moisture then warmer ones.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

This summer in Australia it snowed.

Yep, in their mountains. Been known to happen around here as well.

[andyt]

I think Bart is right. It's supposed to get down to minus ten here on Friday, which would set a record. So obviously there's no warming.

[raydan]

Wow, our first climate change/global warming discussion in a long while.

I can honestly say that I not not miss it.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Hmm remember how the AGW proponents keep telling us the polar ice is melting and receding?
Yet in a different thread, we're told that the mapping of the Beaufort Sea is going so slowly because the ice has been too thick for most of the year

So, which is it?

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Hmm remember how the AGW proponents keep telling us the polar ice is melting and receding?
Yet in a different thread, we're told that the mapping of the Beaufort Sea is going so slowly because the ice has been too thick for most of the year

So, which is it?

Again you are talking about specifics rather then in general.

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

Mind you its doesn't stop deniers from holding the belief that it is getting warmer because we are coming out of an ice age at the same time as scoffing that glaciers are melting.

[raydan]

$1:

If humankind succeeds in raising carbon concentrations in the air and the oceans to the point that we kill ourselves off, the planet would not mind a bit. Indeed, if it had an opinion, it would probably be delighted that such a damaging species has gone the way of the Dodo. It may take 10,000 years to undo the atmospheric damage, but that is but a heartbeat to a 4.5 Billion year old planet. Selling environmentalism as a kindness we are doing “Mother Earth” is inaccurate: It’s actually an effort to save our own hide.

[BartSimpson]

Derby, you missed my point from earlier in that if you've got literally thousands of localities reporting record cold then where, pray tell, are these supposedly warm temps coming from to make things warm 'globally'?

And, yes, I do stand by my assertion that the macro trend has been for warmer temps. That's why there's not 2-3Km of ice covering Toronto.

At the same time I call BS on the temperature records of the AGW alarmists. And I'm not alone in that.

To the immediate situation, record cold taking place all over the world is not what we were told to expect by the AGW alarmists just ten years ago. Supposedly there wasn't supposed to be snow in the UK anymore and that North America was supposed to be relatively devoid of snow as well. Seems that hasn't happened.

Nor have the utterly illogical droughts predicted by the alarmists and then there's also been the dearth of superstorms as predicted by Al Gore and the alarmists. They just are not happening.

You people have a lot in common with the whackadoodles saying that Jesus is coming on May 21 and that's you don't know when to shut up and just admit you're wrong. You watch, the nutbars will say 'something' to excuse their dire prediction come May 22 - just the same as your crowd is going double down on the BS when sea level has failed to rise in the past ten years as they said it would and as all sorts of other things have failed to occur.

Funny, you people denounce the militia nuts for building bomb shelters for a disaster that never happens based on paranoia and superstition and you're not all that different.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Derby, you missed my point from earlier in that if you've got literally thousands of localities reporting record cold then where, pray tell, are these supposedly warm temps coming from to make things warm 'globally'?

You missed my point that we aren't. You have a couple and they are easily matched by locales that are warmer.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

And, yes, I do stand by my assertion that the macro trend has been for warmer temps. That's why there's not 2-3Km of ice covering Toronto.

Then why do you post references questioning the temperature record and hold that "thousands of locales are posting record lows"?

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

At the same time I call BS on the temperature records of the AGW alarmists. And I'm not alone in that.

Then how do you agree with a trend towards warmer weather? It seems absurd to post you believe the earth is warming up yet claim you don't actually believe the evidence that supports your very belief.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

To the immediate situation, record cold taking place all over the world is not what we were told to expect by the AGW alarmists just ten years ago. Supposedly there wasn't supposed to be snow in the UK anymore and that North America was supposed to be relatively devoid of snow as well. Seems that hasn't happened.

No. You are simply posting talking points that non-experts are saying (or perhaps a few experts posting their belief or theory) rather then the general consensus of the experts.

In addition, It was never the experts saying we would never see record colds anywhere. Just like the global cooling myth of the 70s, that is the stuff the media prints because it sells copy. The experts aren't touting that.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Nor have the utterly illogical droughts predicted by the alarmists and then there's also been the dearth of superstorms as predicted by Al Gore and the alarmists. They just are not happening.

Again, not coming from the general consensus of the experts.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

You people have a lot in common with the whackadoodles saying that Jesus is coming on May 21 and that's you don't know when to shut up and just admit you're wrong. You watch, the nutbars will say 'something' to excuse their dire prediction come May 22 - just the same as your crowd is going double down on the BS when sea level has failed to rise in the past ten years as they said it would and as all sorts of other things have failed to occur.

Actually I maintain the connection between global warming-CO2-Human activity is real. I don't post doomsday scenarios nor predictions of the effects.

Lets use your analogy about the whackadoodle hesus freaks predicting the rapture.

You might not believe their religious haragues but you certainly believe in all the underlying faith in it all and have yourself said that the coming of JC is a fundamental christian belief.

In essence, just because a few people make wild statements about your religion it doesn't change your belief in it.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Funny, you people denounce the militia nuts for building bomb shelters for a disaster that never happens based on paranoia and superstition and you're not all that different.

[/quote]

When you simply make stuff up you just show you are losing the argument. When have I ever made any statement about militias & bomb shelters. In fact I think you have pointed to various militia groups and said they were a little nuts.

I don't think people building bomb shelters (pretty much a 50s cold war thing) was nuts. I think the rampant paranoia many of your fellow Americans have about your government coming to get you is just a little bit tin-foilish.

[BartSimpson]

Derby, a macro trend in climate takes place over centuries and millennia. Micro trends take place over far shorter periods of time and they go up and down with regularity.

Acknowledging a macro trend for warming while saying that the current micro trend is not warming is not a contradiction.

It's like saying that in August 1944 the Allies were winning the overall war against Germany while in places like Metz the Germans were doing better or holding their ground.

AGW proposes a micro trend of warming and the anecdotal data just don't support that.

[sandorski]

andyt andyt:

...

As for Americans causing most climate change, until we can get our ghg emissions per capita down below theirs I'm not sure if we should be throwing stones.

A lot of our Per Capita output is there in order to supply the US Oil. We should definitely lower it and I think we can, but the US bears some responsibility(moral not monetary)for it as well. Which is another reason why we should push hard to lower our CO2 output. Parts of the US have accepted that moral responsibility and are working on decreasing consumption of that particular Oil.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Derby, a macro trend in climate takes place over centuries and millennia. Micro trends take place over far shorter periods of time and they go up and down with regularity.

The difference here is that human induced actions magnify such actions.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Acknowledging a macro trend for warming while saying that the current micro trend is not warming is not a contradiction.

Except that experts have identified the trend as human derived and human interference screws up the equilibrium factor.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

It's like saying that in August 1944 the Allies were winning the overall war against Germany while in places like Metz the Germans were doing better or holding their ground.

Bad analogy but let me extend that. You yourself say that we should have intervened before the war started based on identified trends.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

AGW proposes a micro trend of warming and the anecdotal data just don't support that.

Actually the evidence does. It shows: The globe is heating up and that temperature increase can be traced directly to the increase in CO2 emissions which can be pegged directly to human activity. That is why it is supported by an overwhelming % of experts.

WHAT ISN'T as clear cut are the effects of said warming.

This whole thing mirrors the evolution debate. A few fanatics deny entirely despite the science which they have no choice but to attack. The majority agree on the basic fundamentals of it but specific aspects of it are debated.

Facts are facts. Evidence is evidence and that is entirely why it is supported by the overwhelming & of experts (incidentily creationists keep claiming the experts are abandoning evolution in droves too..)