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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:25 pm
 


$1:
So natives get to be special Canadians and get free housing for perpetuity, while having all the same rights as other Canadians? In BC, we're negotiating land claims. I'm not aware of one treaty band in BC where they were promised housing. Do we have to keep paying for ever for conquering them, or can we just invite them to be regular Canadians like everybody else?



You seem to be under the impression that Natives have it good. They don't. They live in squalor. They've adjusted to survive in their circumstances, the same way Palestinians have in the occupied territories, the way Blacks have in the US ghettos. Unfortunately, much of that survival mechanism reinforces destructive and anti-social, anti-government, anti-majority attitudes, drug abuse, domestic violence, etc. and does not leave them, as a community, in any kind of position to just pick themselves up and sort themselves out at your command. They say communities can not move on from tragic pasts until 4 generations have passed, when there is no longer any living link to the tragedy, when nobody alive can recall being told first-hand accounts by their grandparent of the tragedy. Our clock started ticking circa 1974, so we still have a long way to go.

They don't have all the same rights as other Canadians. Reserve land is still owned by the Crown and any Band Council decision is subject to approval of the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs. The limits of what Band Councils can and can not do is prescribed in the Indian Act, which was not written by Indians, but by the "White Man" government to serve government interests.

Also, why should these people be forced to become "regular Canadians"? Why not just set them up so they're economically self-sustaining and off the federal dole and free to arrange their communities as they please? Think of it as "start up investment" that will end the perpetual cycle of handouts that dont meet their needs or ours. I don't think anyone wants to be the ward of a negligent parent and have no say in their own destiny. Nobody wants free housing when the free housing is as shitty as what they've been "given". Im sure they would prefer a true hand-up then a shitty, insufficient hand-out. What FN really want is the ability to participate in their own future, not for the "White Man" government to make decisions for them and tell them what they need. That still hasn't happened yet. The Indian Act, the Dept of Indian and Norther Affairs, etc, are all old institutions designed and built in the 1800's to control FN people, not to include them. How can you not see that?

$1:
They can change their environment, move off reserve, or they can do something about conditions on reserves if they want. You see seem to see them as perpetual victims, when they haven't been for quite a few years now. Don't you see that it's your attitude that helps to keep them dependent?


Some problems here:

1) Poverty is self-perpetuating and dis-empowering and can not be solved by focusing on the few individuals who beat the system. Just like right-wingers always say "poor people just need to work harder until they're not poor anymore, like that one guy who was in the news last week." Substance abuse, defeatism, alienation all conspire to keep large numbers of the oppressed group (be they poor people, blacks, Indians, whatever) from participating. If the experience of a group of people is that the System is evil, the odds of them joining the system and being good little capitalists are slim.

2) Poor people are not likely to move away from their support network of neighbours, relatives, etc as this is part of how they get through life. this is who babysits their kids, lends them money, help them find work, etc.

3)There is actually a large and growing number of urban aboriginals, especially in the prairies. However, the educational resources on the Reserve are not sufficient to provide them with skills to be successful in the city, and many of the social problems that took root in the Reserve follow them. Addictions and attitudes dont simply evaporate at the city line.

4)They dont have the resources to solve their own problems because their communities dont receive anything comparable to the support that other Canadian communities have. As I mentioned earlier, their schools, hospitals, water systems etc are deplorable because the govt only gives them a fraction of what it gives "white" communities.

5)Why are you dictating their options to them? Why can't they simply be empowered to find their own solutions? That empowerment means
1) Collaboration and dialogue between FN and the gov, not a one-way patronizing dictation from Ottawa.
2)Cooperative Planning and
3) Yes, money to bring the resulting plans to fruition. They don't have it so its got to come from somewhere.

$1:
My community pays taxes, same as yours. When natives start paying taxes, they'll get more back from govt as well. But in terms of spending, the govt spends more per native than they do per Canadian. It just all disappears down the rabbit hole is all.
They paid a tax back in 1492. The payment was called North America. Its only a lot "per native" because their population is small as we've killed most of them off. Also, we deliberately intended for these people to be poorly compensated dependents don't you see that? There's never been an honest attempt by the government to help these people become regular Canadians, ever. Convert them Christianity, yes. But equal citizens? No. Not once.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:54 pm
 


If you think creating a special class of people in Canada that have special status, and that will work out in the long run, you're mistaken. They'll either maintain their dependency, and no money we give them will be enough. Or, if they get a special deal and do better than the majority, it will breed resentment and conflict, which won't be sustainable. I guarantee you that if Asians become the majority in Canada, they don't feel white man's guilt. As soon as they run things they tell the natives to get off their asses or get stuffed. So should we.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:58 am
 


well they can't tell them, "Yoo go 'way. Yoo razy, jus forrow dem haiwy eleephun an' go sumweh el. We no won yoo heah if yoo no wok!!"


























again :twisted: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:28 am
 


andyt andyt:
If you think creating a special class of people in Canada that have special status, and that will work out in the long run, you're mistaken. They'll either maintain their dependency, and no money we give them will be enough. Or, if they get a special deal and do better than the majority, it will breed resentment and conflict, which won't be sustainable. I guarantee you that if Asians become the majority in Canada, they don't feel white man's guilt. As soon as they run things they tell the natives to get off their asses or get stuffed. So should we.



Andy, They were made a "special class of people" the minute we started to oppress them centuries ago. "Special" doesn't only mean more privileged, it can also mean excluded, disenfranchised and oppressed. They have never been given a fair chance to succeed in the society WE built for OURSELVES. They have never been given a chance to have a say in what happens to them or to even have a say in how First Nations and the government will communicate with each other. Everything has been dictated to them. And all the asbestos-filled toxic housing and e.coli-filled water systems that you somehow feel are generous "gifts" to them don't even begin compensate for any of that.

Think about all the wealth and prosperity and all the other benefits and advantages that European settlers reaped from taking over this continent in the past several centuries. FN people have seen almost none of that, they've mostly just bear the social costs of being forced to live at the bottom of a capitalist system.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:55 am
 


The Irish were oppressed. They moved and they seem to have done pretty well in Canada and the US. Eire was doing fine too until the banking crash.

If you look at the largest FN in Ontario, the Mohawks and allied nations, they came up here with the British and were given land grants along with other UEL's. This isn't their land either if you use your tired 'logic'.

Don't give me the old 'oppressed people' crap.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:59 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:


Andy, They were made a "special class of people" the minute we started to oppress them centuries ago. "Special" doesn't only mean more privileged, it can also mean excluded, disenfranchised and oppressed. They have never been given a fair chance to succeed in the society WE built for OURSELVES. They have never been given a chance to have a say in what happens to them or to even have a say in how First Nations and the government will communicate with each other. Everything has been dictated to them. And all the asbestos-filled toxic housing and e.coli-filled water systems that you somehow feel are generous "gifts" to them don't even begin compensate for any of that.

Think about all the wealth and prosperity and all the other benefits and advantages that European settlers reaped from taking over this continent in the past several centuries. FN people have seen almost none of that, they've mostly just bear the social costs of being forced to live at the bottom of a capitalist system.


And now, for decades they've been invited to participate in that capitalist system, but have to a large part resisted. They want all the mod cons that our system has created, but won't work for them. I say again, you can't run a country with one group of people singled out to be more equal than others. Either they remain dependent and forever dissatisfied unless we give them 100% of our output, or they start doing well and still demand extras and that creates resentment. Both scenarios are currently playing out.

Yep, later immigrants dominated the first immigrants, and treated them like shit for some time. But that time is over, and the way forward is to move forward, not get stuck in guilt and accusation. They've got all the opportunities the rest of us have, and I'm all for poverty alleviation measures that would disproportionately benefit natives, since they are disproportionately poor. But no more of this guilt trip.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:16 pm
 


$1:
And now, for decades they've been invited to participate in that capitalist system, but have to a large part resisted.


You can't saw someone's legs off and then complain that they won't join your marathon the next day. Further, whether they were really genuinely invited to fully participate in the capitalist system as anything other than working poor is doubtful. Even if that was the case, they weren't (and still aren't) in any position successfully participate. They've never been given a school system that is remotely equal to what other Canadians have and don't have the resources to build their own. If you want them to participate, they have to have a chance for success, and they won't have a chance for success until there is adequate investment in their schools and communities.

"Decades" is actually not a very long time for this kind of social change; these changes occur over generations, the conventional thought is 4-5 generations (after the people who endured the injustice and the generation following who heard first-hand accounts have died). So long as there are people who can say "my grandparents told me about all the horrible things that happened to them" there will be some element of resistance.

The fact is they don't have -and have never had- the same opportunities as the rest of us. Thats a fact. Your home town collects its own revenue and receives revenue from the Province. Their home town only gets what they can eke out from natural resources deals (if they're lucky enough to have any resources) and what the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs says they can have - practically on a line-item basis.

The bottom line is you have to have policy to transition from the past to the future you imagine, it's going to take time and you can't just command it to occur overnight through the force of your White Male outrage. You can't just take over a failing business, yell to the employees "OK guys, start being successful or you're fired!" and expect your company to be a global leader the next day. You have to have a transition strategy, make long-term investments, correct systemic deficiencies, etc. and then you have to wait for things to play out. This is no different.

The main reason I don't think that poverty issues affecting First Nations people can be solved with general anti-poverty programs is that FN are in a unique situation, and blanket solutions are rarely effective at solving unique problems. Urban poverty, rural poverty, FN poverty, immigrant poverty, single parent poverty, senior citizen poverty may all have some overlap but each also contains its own unique dimensions that have to be addressed directly and not through some broad "one-size-fits-none" approach.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:33 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
The Irish were oppressed. They moved and they seem to have done pretty well in Canada and the US. Eire was doing fine too until the banking crash.

If you look at the largest FN in Ontario, the Mohawks and allied nations, they came up here with the British and were given land grants along with other UEL's. This isn't their land either if you use your tired 'logic'.

Don't give me the old 'oppressed people' crap.


Be careful, you'll attract the revisionist-i-took-a-one-history-course-self-loathing-apologists and then it's all the dodging, the crying, the denying, the self-righteousness, and then the inevitable suicide post. :wink:

Oh wait, that's the fun stuff. My bad...carry on. [B-o]


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:36 pm
 


Mustang1 Mustang1:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
The Irish were oppressed. They moved and they seem to have done pretty well in Canada and the US. Eire was doing fine too until the banking crash.

If you look at the largest FN in Ontario, the Mohawks and allied nations, they came up here with the British and were given land grants along with other UEL's. This isn't their land either if you use your tired 'logic'.

Don't give me the old 'oppressed people' crap.


Be careful, you'll attract the revisionist-i-took-a-one-history-course-self-loathing-apologists and then it's all the dodging, the crying, the denying, the self-righteousness, and then the inevitable suicide post. :wink:

Oh wait, that's the fun stuff. My bad...carry on. [B-o]


Yeah, besides, those are people who have taken their history of the Duke of Argyle's brats course...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:52 pm
 


I don't know what to say....I'm stilled somewhat taken aback that a MacDonald can actually read and write.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:48 pm
 


ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
I don't know what to say....I'm stilled somewhat taken aback that a MacDonald can actually read and write.


Well, you are a Campbell. Our expectations are not high that you know anything.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:11 pm
 


All you need to know is we took everything that was yours.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:23 pm
 


ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
All you need to know is we took everything that was yours.


Not everything, but what you did you handed to the English like a good 'un...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:28 pm
 


Seeing as MacDonald possessions were bought with English money for siding against the Scottish throne it was only sporting that they got something back. Keep the Germans happy and out of your hair, and spite the thieving sheep shaggers.


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