[Proculation]

Scape Scape:

Without his 5 year plans and the NKVD holding a gun to peoples heads to makes sure they did them then there would be no Russia. 27 million Russians died in WWII but if Hitler won then it would have been 170 million and the world would be under the yoke of fascism.

The soviet system was not all that bad !

[Scape]

On the balance. Had there been no Stalin in Moscow in 41 then their fate would have been the same as Paris in 40. It is important to note however that the tables could very easily been turned. If there had been no Hitler then Europe could have easily fallen to Stalin and the world would then be under the yoke of communism.

[CommanderSock]

Scape Scape:

On the balance. Had there been no Stalin in Moscow in 41 then their fate would have been the same as Paris in 40. It is important to note however that the tables could very easily been turned. If there had been no Hitler then Europe could have easily fallen to Stalin and the world would then be under the yoke of communism.

The Russian people are very resilient. They took out the greatest army in the world 100 years earlier without a Stalin figure.

[Mustang1]

Well...the weather and hubris played a significant role in the Russian Invasion of 1812, to be sure.

[CommanderSock]

Same with 1941 invasion too. Weather took a heavy toll on the Germans.

[Scape]

I don't believe they would have. When Stalin 1st assumed power he surmised (correctly) that Russia was 50-100 years behind the rest of the world and that they could either catch up or be crushed. In 10 years he propelled Russia from a backwater to being well on it's way to a superpower. He was a Caeser of his time but a very bloody, ruthless and paranoid one at that. In no way could the Russians held vs the modern German armies any more then the Polish calvery could have without Stalin to not only instill the fear of him over death and Hitler but also create the industry required to win such a war. Not only was it moved vast distances and reassembled but it was done in the Siberian steppes. Not something simple farmers would ever do.

[CommanderSock]

Scape Scape:

I don't believe they would have. When Stalin 1st assumed power he surmised (correctly) that Russia was 50-100 years behind the rest of the world and that they could either catch up or be crushed. In 10 years he propelled Russia from a backwater to being well on it's way to a superpower. He was a Caeser of his time but a very bloody, ruthless and paranoid one at that. In no way could the Russians held vs the modern German armies any more then the Polish calvery could have without Stalin to not only instill the fear of him over death and Hitler but also create the industry required to win such a war. Not only was it moved vast distances and reassembled but it was done in the Siberian steppes. Not something simple farmers would ever do.

And immediate American shipments of tanks and planes to help them hold the Germans for a bit while they could get their own factories churning out arms.

Althought it's true that most Democracies would collapse if they lost 3 million men within months. But Russia is not like many other countries. Russians probably would've held out still.

[Mustang1]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

Same with 1941 invasion too. Weather took a heavy toll on the Germans.

Actually, weather wouldn't have been a major factor if it wasn't for hubris or The Führerprinzip

[Scape]

Lend lease was only effective once the US saw that Russia wasn't going the way of France. Had Hitlers theorem of a rotten house held true and they were able to take Moscow in 41 lend lease would have amounted to nothing because there would be no central authority to dole the supplies out to. The Germans would then be able to pick of the disorganized rabble peace-meal one by one as they would be divided and conquered to be captured or killed and processed into slavery and or liquidation in the order of hundreds of millions making the holocaust look like a rehearsal.

[PostFactum]

Scape Scape:

Without his 5 year plans and the NKVD holding a gun to peoples heads to makes sure they did them then there would be no Russia. 27 million Russians died in WWII but if Hitler won then it would have been 170 million and the world would be under the yoke of fascism.

27 million)) Well man, after WWII, Stalin had to say to the world, where millions of Ukrainians, Russians and Caucasians dissepeared, so he took all the deathes during the 30-th and added them to the "victims of WWII" here you have a 27 millions.

[martin14]

PostFactum PostFactum:

Scape Scape:

Without his 5 year plans and the NKVD holding a gun to peoples heads to makes sure they did them then there would be no Russia. 27 million Russians died in WWII but if Hitler won then it would have been 170 million and the world would be under the yoke of fascism.

27 million)) Well man, after WWII, Stalin had to say to the world, where millions of Ukrainians, Russians and Caucasians dissepeared, so he took all the deathes during the 30-th and added them to the "victims of WWII" here you have a 27 millions.

I just think it's cool PF can shout out now, so we all can listen to him.

At least the Union has changed a lot.


I wonder where the pressure for these admissions is coming from.

[PostFactum]

martin14 martin14:

I wonder where the pressure for these admissions is coming from.

After Ukrainian independance scientists opened old archives and counted soldiers with civils who died on the war. The numbers were strange, they've started to ask relatives of those people, as a result they've founded that millions of people were dead during the hunger of 1932-1933 and in gulags of Siberia and after that just added to the general WWII statistics.

[EyeBrock]

Scape Scape:

I don't believe they would have. When Stalin 1st assumed power he surmised (correctly) that Russia was 50-100 years behind the rest of the world and that they could either catch up or be crushed. In 10 years he propelled Russia from a backwater to being well on it's way to a superpower. He was a Caeser of his time but a very bloody, ruthless and paranoid one at that. In no way could the Russians held vs the modern German armies any more then the Polish calvery could have without Stalin to not only instill the fear of him over death and Hitler but also create the industry required to win such a war. Not only was it moved vast distances and reassembled but it was done in the Siberian steppes. Not something simple farmers would ever do.

So him killing 22 million of his own is ok then? A modern day Caesar? Pravda couldn't have done a better job Scape.

I have to say I'm surprised at you being so 'kind' in describing one of the worst tyrants and murderers in history.

[Scape]

martin14 martin14:

PostFactum PostFactum:

Scape Scape:

Without his 5 year plans and the NKVD holding a gun to peoples heads to makes sure they did them then there would be no Russia. 27 million Russians died in WWII but if Hitler won then it would have been 170 million and the world would be under the yoke of fascism.

27 million)) Well man, after WWII, Stalin had to say to the world, where millions of Ukrainians, Russians and Caucasians dissepeared, so he took all the deathes during the 30-th and added them to the "victims of WWII" here you have a 27 millions.

I just think it's cool PF can shout out now, so we all can listen to him.

At least the Union has changed a lot.


I wonder where the pressure for these admissions is coming from.

Poland. looks like the Russians are into concessions to get oil flowing on better terms. That whole thing a few months ago with the plane crash with most of the senior Polish polticians being killed had them thinking the Russians were behind it and given their track record who could blame them. This will allow them to at least start a new with a clean slate.

[Scape]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Scape Scape:

I don't believe they would have. When Stalin 1st assumed power he surmised (correctly) that Russia was 50-100 years behind the rest of the world and that they could either catch up or be crushed. In 10 years he propelled Russia from a backwater to being well on it's way to a superpower. He was a Caeser of his time but a very bloody, ruthless and paranoid one at that. In no way could the Russians held vs the modern German armies any more then the Polish calvery could have without Stalin to not only instill the fear of him over death and Hitler but also create the industry required to win such a war. Not only was it moved vast distances and reassembled but it was done in the Siberian steppes. Not something simple farmers would ever do.

So him killing 22 million of his own is ok then? A modern day Caesar? Pravda couldn't have done a better job Scape.

I have to say I'm surprised at you being so 'kind' in describing one of the worst tyrants and murderers in history.

Bah! I suppose you would take that tack being an apologist for Trotsky and Lenin. What, your not you say? Well think on this, had Lenin been in the Moscow do you really think they would have stood up to the Fascists? Of course not! Idealism would have got them all killed and you know it. And not I'm not holding the pom-poms for a bloody tyrant either as I have already stated if Stalin had the chance he would have done to Europe what Hitler did had he not already beat him to it. Effectively the two evils canceled each other out. Blood was spilt either way but a hell of a lot less then if we only had one of them instead of both.