[Khar]

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but they are guests in China. I don't think Canada would want Chinese government people to wear something offensive to Canada?

Smartest thing? Don't go to a country like this at a time like this. I think it is unnecessary to provoke. They are there to build relations, not to tear them apart.

I disagree.

No matter where a person is, you are dealing with an official from another country, whether it is in Canada or China. If they were in Canada, it would have still caused them offense and they could have still been asked for them to be removed, to which any elected officials would have likely declined.

Changing countries doesn't stop it from causing offense, in my mind. Who this person is and what they represent does not change geographically -- you are dealing with much more than just a person with the Prime Minister of the UK, you are dealing with the elected voice of tens of millions of people. They are dealing with an elected official of the UK in this story. For all purposes, they are dealing with an essential piece of the UK, a portion of the UK identity. To request the leader of a people to do something asserts a series of messages onto the people that that person represents, in my books. Especially in the event of a visit between two countries, which is going to be in public eye. When I read that they were asked to remove the poppy, what other people may read is that the Chinese had so little respect for those poppies that they did not understand that for millions of people around the world, it represents the people who died for us. It is literally an international symbol of remembrance which they asked to be removed. How is it that in a diplomatic situation such a thing can be considered acceptable?

To not be able to recognize the difference between a symbol to the people of the UK which has an ongoing meaning to a greater set of wars, which is a symbol which is used in several other nations, is a failure on the part of the Chinese and not a failure on the part of the UK representatives. The meaning of the poppy to the people of Britain is essentially different, and to not recognize the difference in intent and meaning to an incredibly important piece of the UK identity is not acceptable. I'm rather surprised that the Chinese would even request such a thing, as it would cause offense to the guests of their country.

It is not as if these men are walking around armed with guns or weapons, or throwing pamphlets at people with intent to cause the Chinese government trouble in the name of some portion of their national identity. When Muslim leaders visit, we do not ask them to remove their turbans, do we? We do not ask members of some religious affiliations to remove ceremonial knives from their persons in our government buildings when they visit from other countries, even if we are not allowed weapons there, because we recognize the importance of those artifacts to their identity. We respect the inherent differences and know that the intent of these artifacts is not to cause us harm but are there out of some form of respect. Likewise, if someone is using a nazi swastika with express intent to foment anger and hate, the intent regarded in the use of such a symbol is taken into mind and would be asked to be removed from the body of a person in a diplomatic situation.

I know there's a post after mine now after my first edit, so I'll wrap this up quickly by saying that in this case, I really do not feel that the folks from the UK were at fault. If the Chinese are concerned about the intended message of the poppies when presenting any photos to their people then they can explain the meaning, which would not be hard. After all, we understand why they could have offense to the symbol from a short summary, it would not be hard for a similar message to be mentioned about why removing it would be offensive for us.

[PENATRATOR]

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but they are guests in China. I don't think Canada would want Chinese government people to wear something offensive to Canada?

Smartest thing? Don't go to a country like this at a time like this. I think it is unnecessary to provoke. They are there to build relations, not to tear them apart.

Yeah guests as were the Canadian and British soldiers who died in China (not to mention suffered as POW's) at the hands of the Japs in Dec 1941, defending the colony at Hong Kong agianst ridiculous overwhelming odds. Guess they forgot about the subsequent attrocities the Japs went on the commit on the Chinese people themselves after that.

Fuck them, go build a cheap, lead based defective toy or something.

[EyeBrock]

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but they are guests in China. I don't think Canada would want Chinese government people to wear something offensive to Canada?

Smartest thing? Don't go to a country like this at a time like this. I think it is unnecessary to provoke. They are there to build relations, not to tear them apart.

I think you underestimate the prominence of the poppy to the Brits and for that matter the Canadians.

In a time when the UK is losing people in combat it's a diplomatic fumble by the Chinese at the very least. If Cameron had removed his poppy there would have been a huge backlash from 95% of the UK.

[Brenda]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but they are guests in China. I don't think Canada would want Chinese government people to wear something offensive to Canada?

Smartest thing? Don't go to a country like this at a time like this. I think it is unnecessary to provoke. They are there to build relations, not to tear them apart.

I think you underestimate the prominence of the poppy to the Brits and for that matter the Canadians.

In a time when the UK is losing people in combat it's a diplomatic fumble by the Chinese at the very least. If Cameron had removed his poppy there would have been a huge backlash from 95% of the UK.

Of course.
So why go to a country from which you know the history (or could have known, if you had done your homework) at this time of year?
It is ok to insult the Chinese, but it is not ok to be insulted...

[QBall]

$1:

China was defeated in both the First Opium War, from 1839 to 1842 and the Second Opium War from 1856 to 1860.

Has there been a military conflict that China has won in the last 200 years that didn't involve rolling over a small country? No? Then someone should tell the "...remind Chinese ministers and officials..." they're in no position to make demands.

[Brenda]

It's THEIR country. They are in EVERY position to make demands.

Doesn't mean they can make demands about the consequences of their demands tho

[Khar]

Brenda Brenda:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but they are guests in China. I don't think Canada would want Chinese government people to wear something offensive to Canada?

Smartest thing? Don't go to a country like this at a time like this. I think it is unnecessary to provoke. They are there to build relations, not to tear them apart.

I think you underestimate the prominence of the poppy to the Brits and for that matter the Canadians.

In a time when the UK is losing people in combat it's a diplomatic fumble by the Chinese at the very least. If Cameron had removed his poppy there would have been a huge backlash from 95% of the UK.

Of course.
So why go to a country from which you know the history (or could have known, if you had done your homework) at this time of year?
It is ok to insult the Chinese, but it is not ok to be insulted...

Why would the Chinese have taken them in if, had they done any homework on a far more recent and prominent series of events which they themselves played a part in with generations which are currently alive, have invited them if they knew there was a very real chance that the British delegates would be wearing poppies?

I have a feeling that declining the invitiation would have been a worse decision than the more decidedly minor occurance of a conflict over them wearing poppies.

Fact of the matter is this is a long running tradition of British (and Canadian) nationals. Trying to lay blame on either side for the fact that neither side “did their homework” is largely pointless. The British were invited to China at this point and the leader wore an important piece of the British identity as a piece of the British identity himself. Asking him to remove it is a diplomatic faux pas, in my mind, even if it is the 150th anniversary of the second Opium war. The intent is what is important.

$1:

It's THEIR country. They are in EVERY position to make demands.

Doesn't mean they can make demands about the consequences of their demands tho

Well, I would argue that you can’t make utterly outrageous demands, considering you are dealing with invited foreign officials in a public setting, since political gaffs can have very real consequences, but sure, let's go with that. I don’t know if this falls in that but in my opinion, this is something which supersedes geographical boundaries anyways. It’s about the identity of a country, not about where a person from that nationality happens to be.

Canadians don’t stop wearing poppies when they travel. Some religious groups don’t stop wearing turbans or crosses. Canada has gotten flack for visiting officials receiving lack luster welcomes before. In response to that “Chinese being insulted is okay” comment of yours, is it okay for us to have to be understanding to the decorum and customs of welcomed and invited foreign nationals, but not okay for the Chinese to do the same? In my mind, I would expect them to treat our officials and we treat theirs – hopefully, with the respect due to their position and to their culture.

Understanding is not a one way road, Brenda. There is an intrinsic conflict here over the meaning of a symbol. For one group of people it means a very different thing, and respect should be given to the divergence of meaning in that symbol. We likewise provide understanding to groups which wear ceremonial knives, even though we don't typically allow people to wear such things in our government buildings.

[EyeBrock]

Brenda Brenda:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but they are guests in China. I don't think Canada would want Chinese government people to wear something offensive to Canada?

Smartest thing? Don't go to a country like this at a time like this. I think it is unnecessary to provoke. They are there to build relations, not to tear them apart.

I think you underestimate the prominence of the poppy to the Brits and for that matter the Canadians.

In a time when the UK is losing people in combat it's a diplomatic fumble by the Chinese at the very least. If Cameron had removed his poppy there would have been a huge backlash from 95% of the UK.

Of course.
So why go to a country from which you know the history (or could have known, if you had done your homework) at this time of year?
It is ok to insult the Chinese, but it is not ok to be insulted...

Your point fails to resonate Bren.

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

It's THEIR country. They are in EVERY position to make demands.

Doesn't mean they can make demands about the consequences of their demands tho

In general, you don't make demands of diplomats and that's not a faux pas on the part of the Chinese, it's a measured move to see if the UK will kowtow to them. The Chinese suffer from Middle Kingdom Complex and are in thrall to the belief that they are the rightful rulers of the world due to a number of factors. What they want is to see their old masters humbled.

We saw the same thing with Japan at one time and the Japanese liked nothing better than to make a gaijing bow before them. The Japanese were disabused of the notion that they were ah-so superior and now it seems the Chinese are picking up where the Japanese left off in the 1940's.

China is militarily aggressive in asserting sovereignty over islands that are possessed by other countries, they assert that they have the right to sail warships at will through other countries territorial waters, they're stirring up sh*t along the India border again, they're exerting influence into Burma and some folks think they may try to annex it, they've got Vietnam scared into cozying up to the USA, and etc.

You see just a demand to remove a simple poppy, I see the UK making a very important stand over a small issue and that stand indicating their resolve to stand on far larger issues.

[EyeBrock]

I agree Bart. I find it quite implausible that the Chinese didn't realise the cultural importance of the poppy to the Brits.

I'm not having any of the linkage to the Opium Wars at all. The Chinese have a very good grasp of the Brits from history and the links that remain with Hong Kong and the UK. There would have been no shortage of Chinese input on what would and would not rile the Brits.

They were taking the piss and seeing how far they could go and they showed their diplomatic arse. Cameron jumped up a peg or two on this.

[BartSimpson]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I agree Bart. I find it quite implausible that the Chinese didn't realise the cultural importance of the poppy to the Brits.

Implausible? You're generous. I find it impossible to think their diplomatic corps didn't know precisely what they were doing.

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I'm not having any of the linkage to the Opium Wars at all. The Chinese have a very good grasp of the Brits from history and the links that remain with Hong Kong and the UK. There would have been no shortage of Chinese input on what would and would not rile the Brits.

They were taking the piss and seeing how far they could go and they showed their diplomatic arse. Cameron jumped up a peg or two on this.

Concur. The Chinese set a trap for him and he tossed it back at them. They made a serious misstep if they think this kind of thing will go unnoticed in the diplomatic community.

[Unsound]

Another thing to note is, unless I misread the article, the poppy isn't actually any kind of an official symbol of the Opium Wars. I believe they said it "might" remind some people of the wars???
Obviously there is no realistic way that the brits would've known that the poppies could have been offensive to some people, therefore there is obviously no intent to offend, and imo most people agree thqt intent is a large part of what makes something offensive.
The chinese however, would have known exactly what the poppies meant, and shoul've had a very good idea of how asking for them to be removed would be received. As a few other have already said, this was just a test by the chinese to see how the brits would react.
I suspect it won't be more than a few days before we hear about some poor sap from the Chinese protocol dept.(or whatever they call it) getting sacked for not telling his bosses what a breach this would be.

[ShepherdsDog]

The Chineses interpretation of history is a little skewed. Essentially the people are taught that it was the Chinese who single handedly defeated the Japanese. hell even the Taiwanese have this skewed view, and they were part of the Japanese Empire and served in the Imperial forces.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

In general, you don't make demands of diplomats and that's not a faux pas on the part of the Chinese, it's a measured move to see if the UK will kowtow to them.

It was a request not a demand, big difference. See the article title if you don't believe me.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The Chinese suffer from Middle Kingdom Complex and are in thrall to the belief that they are the rightful rulers of the world due to a number of factors. What they want is to see their old masters humbled.

That's definitely true, but not really relevant in this case. This wasn't an effort to push their might, but a request to move something they find offensive.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

China is militarily aggressive in asserting sovereignty over islands that are possessed by other countries, they assert that they have the right to sail warships at will through other countries territorial waters, they're stirring up sh*t along the India border again, they're exerting influence into Burma and some folks think they may try to annex it, they've got Vietnam scared into cozying up to the USA, and etc.

Sorry, but I hardly see China doing any of that. I haven't heard of China invading/fighting anyone since the 60s. On the contrast, the USA has invaded half a dozen or more countries in the same time frame (Grenada, Panama and Iraq 2003 come to mind).

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

You see just a demand to remove a simple poppy, I see the UK making a very important stand over a small issue and that stand indicating their resolve to stand on far larger issues.

Obviously, cross-cultural communications are not your forte.

Do you think it would be appropriate for a Japanese PM to wear a giant button that said Yasukuni shrine (where the remains of several class A war criminals are) when he visits North America? After all, the Japanese PM visits the place at least once a year and the US/Canada never says a peep about it. Of course not. That's similar to what happened here.

If you knew China and the Chinese as well as you claim, you'd understand that they are still upset about being invaded a number of times by Western countries.

Imagine if the a foreign power invaded the US and looted and destroyed a priceless cultural treasure (say Mount Rushmore or the Mall in Washington DC). Then after you spent a small fortune and decades rebuilding it, they came and wiped it out again.

That's what the Chinese are talking about.

Do some research and take a gander at what Yuan Ming Yuan park used to look like and you'll see why it pisses them off. It was a massive park complete with canals, lakes, temples, massive halls, etc. Then tack on all the death and other destruction the western armies brought with them and you might clue in about why it rankles them.

I agree with the PM's decision to keep wearing them, but the Chinese have a right to be pissed by what happened to them at the hands of the western powers in the 19th century.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

If you knew China and the Chinese as well as you claim, you'd understand that they are still upset about being invaded a number of times by Western countries.

People they consider(ed) two steps up from monkeys