[Benn]

Hey you are the one who made the statement, its not up to me to prove it. The last guy gave like 6 links which if read were all lame cases.

Person who makes the charge or statement is the one who has to back it up, not the one who does not believe it.

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

andyt andyt:

I agree that cops should not be investigating cops.

But in this case, the police thought they were dealing with an emergency, that this guy was assaulting his wife. Should he really be allowed to refuse entry to them in this case? I don't know if the police force was proportional to the incident, I don't know how much he struggled. But he would have been a lot better off if he could have communicated with them.

He's not beating his wife if he's standing in plain view. And as soon as you must allow entry to police under any circumstances (ignoring the charter violation) then home invaders only need to wear police uniforms. (which happens fairly regularly)

But I agree with you on the English part. At least basic English is needed to live, I would expect. I hear Vancouver is different however.

No, but she could be lying there bleeding to death while he chats with police. If they accept that he refuses them entry, then what - "oh well, we tried"? An assault call would seem to me to justify "hot pursuit" doctrine - they can barge in without a warrant. And if they're phony cops, saying "sorry no entry" probably won't deter them anyway. So in this case I don't think he should be allowed to refuse entry. The cops' response should be proportional to what is required to gain entry - I have no way of knowing if it was. I would think two cops could subdue a little Chinese guy without hurting him too much, but what do I know.

BTW I disagree with Benn. There are plenty of incidents where police force is excessive. But I'm not what's his name, that jumps all over cops no matter what, either.

[DrCaleb]

Benn Benn:

Hey you are the one who made the statement, its not up to me to prove it. The last guy gave like 6 links which if read were all lame cases.

Person who makes the charge or statement is the one who has to back it up, not the one who does not believe it.

mmmmmm, no. That is not how one argues logically. You are using a common tactic 'ad hominem', attacking me instead of addressing the points I make.

You make the statement that 'he likely should know better than any non immigrant that when the cops come to your door you say yes sir no sir two bags full sir and DON"T dare shove them' are you prepared to provide statistics on that? No, unlikely. If I were petty, and was attacking that weak part of your argument, it does not nullify the rest of your argument.

You are perfectly capable of fact checking, if you feel my facts are incorrect. Distraction from the argument is not relevant, despite your wanting it to be that way.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

The cops' response should be proportional to what is required to gain entry - I have no way of knowing if it was. I would think two cops could subdue a little Chinese guy without hurting him too much, but what do I know.

BTW I disagree with Benn. There are plenty of incidents where police force is excessive. But I'm not what's his name, that jumps all over cops no matter what, either.

On that we agree. Too much is unknown. Even shoving an officer I don't think requires a beating. A knee in the back of the head which is pressed firmly on the ground seems more appropriate, while the other looks for the wife. Enough pain for compliance, not enough for permanent damage.

And I don't like to jump on an 'excessive police force' thread either, but sometimes the story is just too incomplete not to question it.

[Benn]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

mmmmmm, no. That is not how one argues logically. You are using a common tactic 'ad hominem', attacking me instead of addressing the points I make.

You make the statement that 'he likely should know better than any non immigrant that when the cops come to your door you say yes sir no sir two bags full sir and DON"T dare shove them' are you prepared to provide statistics on that? No, unlikely. If I were petty, and was attacking that weak part of your argument, it does not nullify the rest of your argument.

You are perfectly capable of fact checking, if you feel my facts are incorrect. Distraction from the argument is not relevant, despite your wanting it to be that way.

I'm not attacking you I'm asking you to back up your statement. If you wrote a paper in University and made a statement like that and in your reference section wrote "Find it yourself" You'd get dinged for it. If you wrote a report at work and made statements like that and your boss asked how you knew and to prove it you'd not say, "Hey did you not hear of Google?" Asking you to back up your statements is not attacking you. Saying something like "Did your subscription to Google run out?" is insulting someone and avoiding responsibility for having to prove your point. If it were so eays and fast to find you could have done so in the time it took you to write all these replies. Proving you right is not my job and since you still have not proven your statement in fact there is not reason to believe it.

If someone challenged me on how the Chinese state police and PRCIS operates I'd be happy to find the links without avoiding my responsibility.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

andyt andyt:

That's what happens when " me no spik Engrish"

No, that's what happens when you have simpletons that can't figure out a simple number combination denoting someone's address.

Actually it was the same address, just that the call came from the basement suite rather than the main floor. Pretty easy mistake to make. If the cops came pounding on your door about domestic violence, would you argue with them or call your wife down to prove there's no issue? But to do that you'd have to know what they want.

Did you forget the fact that these guys were plainclothes at the time when they pounded on his door then pulled him out for a beating?

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Did you forget the fact that these guys were plainclothes at the time when they pounded on his door then pulled him out for a beating?

Didn't forget, because I never knew. They did say they showed their badges, I guess unnecessary if they're in uniform, but I didn't make the connection. But they supposedly did show their stinkin badges.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Did you forget the fact that these guys were plainclothes at the time when they pounded on his door then pulled him out for a beating?

Didn't forget, because I never knew. They did say they showed their badges, I guess unnecessary if they're in uniform, but I didn't make the connection. But they supposedly did show their stinkin badges.

Both versions says that a badge was shown. That being said, 2am in the morning, guy is just woken up, recent immigrant with minimal English, and the cops were plainclothes.

I wouldn't be opening my door too quickly either and if they grabbed me,I'd put up a fight as well.

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Both versions says that a badge was shown. That being said, 2am in the morning, guy is just woken up, recent immigrant with minimal English, and the cops were plainclothes.

I wouldn't be opening my door too quickly either and if they grabbed me,I'd put up a fight as well.

recent immigrant with minimal English is exactly why I think he "deserves" what he got. He couldn't establish what they wanted. If someone bangs on my door at 2am, I wouldn't open it but talk to them thru a window. If they claim to be cops I would tell them I'm calling 911 to establish their identity. So much easier to do when you speak the language of the country you live in.

Once a cop grabs you, you'd be pretty stupid to put up a fight - you know you can't win, even if you manage to beat this one cop down. They're not exactly coming from a place of "fair fight."

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Both versions says that a badge was shown. That being said, 2am in the morning, guy is just woken up, recent immigrant with minimal English, and the cops were plainclothes.

I wouldn't be opening my door too quickly either and if they grabbed me,I'd put up a fight as well.

recent immigrant with minimal English is exactly why I think he "deserves" what he got.

Oh for the love of fuck. One might hope you head to some country where English is not the primary language and you get bitch slapped by the police - your own fault for not speaking the local lingo.

Fuck sakes, for a guy who's rabidly anti-death penalty you sure are a massive hypocrite when it comes to physical abuse. Can't kill the convicted criminal, but the innocent guy lacking English got what he deserved when the cops mis-identified him and boot fucked him.

Just another hypocritical idiot.

[Curtman]

andyt andyt:

Once a cop grabs you, you'd be pretty stupid to put up a fight - you know you can't win, even if you manage to beat this one cop down. They're not exactly coming from a place of "fair fight."

I don't know what is going on here exactly.. But it was just over two months ago that you said this

andyt andyt:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Resisting arrest = a clear ticket to getting tased.

You are legally allowed to resist an illegal arrest.

[andyt]

Curtman Curtman:

andyt andyt:

Once a cop grabs you, you'd be pretty stupid to put up a fight - you know you can't win, even if you manage to beat this one cop down. They're not exactly coming from a place of "fair fight."

I don't know what is going on here exactly.. But it was just over two months ago that you said this

andyt andyt:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Resisting arrest = a clear ticket to getting tased.

You are legally allowed to resist an illegal arrest.

Yes you are. But you'd better make sure the arrest is illegal. And you'll probably still get your ass kicked, since the cop will be going on the basis that what he's doing is legal, or at least that he won't have an consequences for his actions.

[andyt]

Gunnair Gunnair:

recent immigrant with minimal English is exactly why I think he "deserves" what he got.

Oh for the love of fuck. One might hope you head to some country where English is not the primary language and you get bitch slapped by the police - your own fault for not speaking the local lingo.

Fuck sakes, for a guy who's rabidly anti-death penalty you sure are a massive hypocrite when it comes to physical abuse. Can't kill the convicted criminal, but the innocent guy lacking English got what he deserved when the cops mis-identified him and boot fucked him.

Just another hypocritical idiot.[/quote]

You've got the agenda all figured out, huh? If I'm against the death penalty, i must also weep for every person who gets roughed up because he can't communicate with the police and the police think they are dealing with an emergency?

I know about cops abusing their power. They did it to me when I was a long hair in the 60's, they did way worse to friends of mine. None of us deserved that, the cops were just power tripping. You can read a bout cops power tripping in the papers every day, and I make no excuses for them, think they should be fired. Including that guy who pushed down the woman with MS because she got in his way.

But in this case, they thought somebody was getting beaten in that house. For all they know the person is lying there bleeding to death or severely injured. A guy opens the door and can't communicate and refuses them entry. When they try to arrest him he struggles and receives some injuries. I don't know if those injuries were excessive - that should have been investigated by an non-police agency. But, this guy, because he can't speak the language of the country he has chosen to live and work in, is the author of his own misfortune. If the cops have a legitimate reason to enter your house and detain you, and you struggle with them because you don't know what is going on, my sympathy is with the cops. If they had backed off, and it turned out his wife was dying in the house, can you imagine the shit storm that would come their way, and how cops don't care about domestic violence etc?

[Curtman]

andyt andyt:

Yes you are. But you'd better make sure the arrest is illegal. And you'll probably still get your ass kicked, since the cop will be going on the basis that what he's doing is legal, or at least that he won't have an consequences for his actions.

$1:

officers Nicholas Florkow and Bryan London were called to a home after a woman called 911 to complain her drunk husband was assaulting her

I'm pretty sure he knew he hadn't done it.

[andyt]

Curtman Curtman:

andyt andyt:

Yes you are. But you'd better make sure the arrest is illegal. And you'll probably still get your ass kicked, since the cop will be going on the basis that what he's doing is legal, or at least that he won't have an consequences for his actions.

$1:

officers Nicholas Florkow and Bryan London were called to a home after a woman called 911 to complain her drunk husband was assaulting her

I'm pretty sure he knew he hadn't done it.

But the cops don't. And since he can't speak English, there's no way to establish anything. Also, the cops believed they were at the right address, so I'm not sure this qualifies as an illegal arrest. I would certainly weigh my options very carefully if I thought I was being arrested illegally - because if I resist, I'm gonna get my ass kicked. In most cases it's better to just co-operate an sued them later, than insist on standing on principle. In this case, he was not charged with resisting arrest, because the cops soon established they had the wrong address and apologized. The question is if they used reasonable force - I don't really have the expertise to determine that in this case. Do you?

This guy has been off work for almost a year. Same with his wife because she's so "traumatized." This couple his just wanting to milk the system. They can't be bothered to learn English, but they learn the tricks on how to get money out of the justice system real fast vs what would have happened in China.