[Lemmy]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Lemmy Lemmy:

You also have the right to evade an unlawful arrest.

In the US you do, I'm not so sure about Canada, though.

Well, now you ARE sure because I just told you so. In fact, if you later want to pursue a tort action for unlawful arrest, you need to prove that you attempted to evade the unlawful arrest. You're not just allowed to, you're SUPPOSED to.

[Lemmy]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

To be clear though, if the cop suspects you of being involved in a crime and you can't/refuse to produce identification, you can be placed under arrest.

"Supicion" isn't enough. There must be "reasonable grounds" that you have committed a crime.

[Zipperfish]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

To be clear though, if the cop suspects you of being involved in a crime and you can't/refuse to produce identification, you can be placed under arrest.

"Supicion" isn't enough. There must be "reasonable grounds" that you have committed a crime.

OMG, it's like arguing with lawyers today. OK "reasonable grounds to suspect". Sheesh.

Bottom line: if you don't produce ID when requested by a cop to do so, there's a good chance you'll wind up in the back of the car.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Bottom line: if you don't produce ID when requested by a cop to do so, there's a good chance you'll wind up in the back of the car.

Even if you're a cop you're taking your chances with the cops.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... pASjsNS2BA

[andyt]

If you're going to argue with a cop, make sure there are plenty of witnesses around. And even then, even if you're right, taking all this to court would be a huge pain in the ass. Unless he's being totally unreasonable, just co-operate and get on your way.

[Lemmy]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

OMG, it's like arguing with lawyers today. OK "reasonable grounds to suspect". Sheesh.

No, no, no. There's a tremendous distinction between "suspicion" and "reasonable grounds" and the cops better have the latter if they're gonna slap on the cuffs.

zipperfish zipperfish:

Bottom line: if you don't produce ID when requested by a cop to do so, there's a good chance you'll wind up in the back of the car.

No, the bottom line is that the cops had better have reasonable grounds to put you in the back of the car. This is Canada, not East Germany circa 1978.

[acidcomplex]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

OMG, it's like arguing with lawyers today. OK "reasonable grounds to suspect". Sheesh.

No, no, no. There's a tremendous distinction between "suspicion" and "reasonable grounds" and the cops better have the latter if they're gonna slap on the cuffs.

zipperfish zipperfish:

Bottom line: if you don't produce ID when requested by a cop to do so, there's a good chance you'll wind up in the back of the car.

No, the bottom line is that the cops had better have reasonable grounds to put you in the back of the car. This is Canada, not East Germany circa 1978.

i was put in the back of a car for "resonable grounds" for not showing my ID, yet come trial time miraculously the officer "couldnt remember" what those were.

Ill take my signed apologie though thanks. Love to see the look on there faces when I make this is part of the agreement.

If they want you in the back of the car, your going, for any reason that they can make work at the time, who cares about court, deal with that later. In many officers eyes this is unfortunately, still 1978 Germany

[BartSimpson]

Lemmy Lemmy:

East Germany circa 1978.

Ah, the good old days.

[Zipperfish]

Lemmy Lemmy:

No, no, no. There's a tremendous distinction between "suspicion" and "reasonable grounds" and the cops better have the latter if they're gonna slap on the cuffs.

yes tremendous--if you're a lawyer.


I'm not a lawyer, so I don't apply the adjective "reasonable" to every other noun like they do. Reasonable suspicion=reasonable grounds. Sheesh.

zipperfish zipperfish:

No, the bottom line is that the cops had better have grounds to put you in the back of the car. This is Canada, not East Germany circa 1978.

You live in whatever fantasy world you choose to live in. I'm telling, based on experience, that if you don't show ID when asked to by a cop, there's a pretty good chance you'll be arrested.

Sure you could take it to court later. Maybe you'll even overcome the daunting burden of convincing a judge that the officer didn't have reasonable grounds to suspect you. Fine. But--at the risk of belaboring point--if you don't provide ID to a cop when asked to do so, you stand a good chance of being arrested.

Hey--you know, if you scream "I smell bacon" at a cop, legally they can't arrest you, assault you or unreasonably hassle you. Give it a try!

[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't apply the adjective "reasonable" to every other noun like they do. Reasonable suspicion=reasonable grounds. Sheesh.

I keep telling people, they need to buy a copy of 'Black's Law Dictionary' and read it. Because legalese is in a form of English, doesn't mean all the words mean the same thing.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

You live in whatever fantasy world you choose to live in. I'm telling, based on experience, that if you don't show ID when asked to by a cop, there's a pretty good chance you'll be arrested.

Sure you could take it to court later. Maybe you'll even overcome the daunting burden of convincing a judge that the officer didn't have reasonable grounds to suspect you. Fine. But--at the risk of belaboring point--if you don't provide ID to a cop when asked to do so, you stand a good chance of being arrested.

Hey--you know, if you scream "I smell bacon" at a cop, legally they can't arrest you, assault you or unreasonably hassle you. Give it a try!

No doubt, if you push it, you will go in the car. But that is because people have caved into authority, and they let the cops get away with it for so long it's just assumed now. And it's illegal to arrest you and 'forget' why. And if enough people take it to the court level, then judges will start to see the pattern and start listening again to people.

Me, I will be arrested. With luck, there will be friends around who will testify to what they see in court. I am a squeaky clean citizen, with a good job, with a long history of charity work and volunteer activities. I will be a good believable witness. And I will fight that arrest as far as I need to in order for it to be deemed illegal, simply as a lesson to the rest of them. You know who taught me to do that? Ghandi. "I cannot teach you violence for I do not believe in it. But I can teach you to never bow your head to anybody, even at the cost of your life."

And even I'm not dumb enough to say 'I smell bacon' to a cop. Some of them might be assholes, but they don't deserve to be treated like that. I wouldn't stand for that BS, nor would I expect them to.

[Lemmy]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

yes tremendous--if you're a lawyer.

...or in possession of a triple-digit IQ.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't apply the adjective "reasonable" to every other noun like they do. Reasonable suspicion=reasonable grounds. Sheesh.

I'm not a lawyer either and I understand the distinction. If you don't, that's on you, not me. Sheesh.

zipperfish zipperfish:

You live in whatever fantasy world you choose to live in. I'm telling, based on experience, that if you don't show ID when asked to by a cop, there's a pretty good chance you'll be arrested.

And if you ARE arrested on that basis, you should sue.

zipperfish zipperfish:

Sure you could take it to court later. Maybe you'll even overcome the daunting burden of convincing a judge that the officer didn't have reasonable grounds to suspect you. Fine. But--at the risk of belaboring point--if you don't provide ID to a cop when asked to do so, you stand a good chance of being arrested.

Nope. If you haven't done anything to warrant being arrested and are, at court it's the cop who's gonna have to do the proving.

zipperfish zipperfish:

Hey--you know, if you scream "I smell bacon" at a cop, legally they can't arrest you, assault you or unreasonably hassle you. Give it a try!

There's a big differece between provoking a cop and excercising your right to not tell a cop shit if you haven't broken the law. Of course, there's a distinction between what's legally right and what's common sense. And it's probably a good idea to be polite and cooperative with cops. But at the end of the day, if they can't do their job with out violating people's rights, it's them that will have to answer for it.

[BartSimpson]

Given what's going in GTA the police should be given immunity to go pound heads.

[kenmore]

Yes and welcome to the smell of things to come... harper's police state!

[Bodah]

kenmore kenmore:

Yes and welcome to the smell of things to come... harper's police state!

You've been reading the CBC comments sections again haven't you.

[Zipperfish]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I keep telling people, they need to buy a copy of 'Black's Law Dictionary' and read it. Because legalese is in a form of English, doesn't mean all the words mean the same thing.

Barely a form of English!

Caleb Caleb:

No doubt, if you push it, you will go in the car. But that is because people have caved into authority, and they let the cops get away with it for so long it's just assumed now. And it's illegal to arrest you and 'forget' why. And if enough people take it to the court level, then judges will start to see the pattern and start listening again to people.

Me, I will be arrested. With luck, there will be friends around who will testify to what they see in court. I am a squeaky clean citizen, with a good job, with a long history of charity work and volunteer activities. I will be a good believable witness. And I will fight that arrest as far as I need to in order for it to be deemed illegal, simply as a lesson to the rest of them. You know who taught me to do that? Ghandi. "I cannot teach you violence for I do not believe in it. But I can teach you to never bow your head to anybody, even at the cost of your life."

And even I'm not dumb enough to say 'I smell bacon' to a cop. Some of them might be assholes, but they don't deserve to be treated like that. I wouldn't stand for that BS, nor would I expect them to.

I agree. A while back, for some reason unbeknownst to all to this day, the RCMP invited US cops to come up here and issue tickets. This went on for who knows how long until one day they pulled someone over and asked to search the car. The person in the car said "no" to the US officers, was let go and promptly pulled over again by the RCMP a little ways down, if memory serves correct.

Anyways, what these clowns didn't know was that the guy they pulled over was a Vancouver City cop. A squeaky clean Vancouver cop. They tried to lean on him and didn't work, and the whole thing blew up in their face.

Most of my experience with cops was as a teenage longhair from a bad part of town so I didn't have the pedigree you have. I didn't carry ID and so I regularly found myself in the back of a paddy wagon. I argued my case, but that leads to Lesson Two--if you argue with a cop, you'll probably end up eating dirt soon.