[uwish]

where did I say that? no where pal, the REPORT outlines that the UK (let me quote AGAIN for the visually impaired);

"Compared to the United States of America, the United Kingdom has a slightly higher total crime rate per capita of approximately 85 per 1000 people, while in the USA it is approximately 80"

there is no gun in that quote at all.

[andyt]

uwish uwish:

where did I say that? no where pal, the REPORT outlines that the UK (let me quote AGAIN for the visually impaired);

"Compared to the United States of America, the United Kingdom has a slightly higher total crime rate per capita of approximately 85 per 1000 people, while in the USA it is approximately 80"

there is no gun in that quote at all.

And you threw this factoid about crime in general into a discussion of gun crimes because...?

We have higher property crime here in Canada than the US, something that has been attributed to us having less guns, so the thieves are more brazen. I'll take that over us blowing each other away more tho (we're already 10 times as high as Britain).

[uwish]

because it is another verification that extreme gun laws in western democracies results in a significant rise in crime.

[andyt]

uwish uwish:

because it is another verification that extreme gun laws in western democracies results in a significant rise in crime.

Right, because the US is such a low crime country overall, except for all those gun murders right? Ah, the ability of the true believer to twist anything to make it fit the dogma.

[DerbyX]

uwish uwish:

because it is another verification that extreme gun laws in western democracies results in a significant rise in crime.

No it doesn't. You are trying to draw conclusions without evidence. Funny that when I point out the lower crime rates experienced in Canada the tactic used by many US gun proponents suddenly blames other factors such as increased immigration, both legal and illegal. In fact that is just what a few have done when explaining higher crime rates in Arizona or Texas.

I know in England that such crime rates are often blamed on increased immigration and the resultant culture clashes. None of the English I know, none of them ever blamed increased gun laws nor ever had anything but admiration for banning guns.

I support their decision in their country. Sorry but you are simply wrong trying to claim increased gun laws means higher crime. Canada has less then the US and if that theory was true then we would see Canada with higher crime and higher crime from east to west not west to east as it is. Same goes for a "liberal" justice system. The evidence shows it does not produce more criminals.

[andyt]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Canada has less {crime} then the US and if that theory was true then we would see Canada with higher crime and higher crime from east to west not west to east as it is. Same goes for a "liberal" justice system. The evidence shows it does not produce more criminals.

I don't have figures at hand to back this up, but my understanding is that we have very similar crime rates vs the US. We kill/harm each other with knives, screwdrivers, baseball bats and frying pans as much per capita as the US. We have slightly higher property crime. etc. What we don't do, by a factor of 67 to 1, is kill each other with guns as often.

But neither do we have worse crime than the US. And England always had way more restrictive gun laws vs the US, yet this increase in crime Uwish is talking about is recent - likely something else at play. If he wants to make his point, he's going to have to present a solid study, by somebody without an agenda, that shows the link between the crime rate increase and whatever slight extra restrictions the Brits may have put on guns.

[DerbyX]

andyt andyt:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Canada has less {crime} then the US and if that theory was true then we would see Canada with higher crime and higher crime from east to west not west to east as it is. Same goes for a "liberal" justice system. The evidence shows it does not produce more criminals.

I don't have figures at hand to back this up, but my understanding is that we have very similar crime rates vs the US. We kill/harm each other with knives, screwdrivers, baseball bats and frying pans as much per capita as the US. We have slightly higher property crime. etc. What we don't do, by a factor of 67 to 1, is kill each other with guns as often.

But neither do we have worse crime than the US. And England always had way more restrictive gun laws vs the US, yet this increase in crime Uwish is talking about is recent - likely something else at play. If he wants to make his point, he's going to have to present a solid study, by somebody without an agenda, that shows the link between the crime rate increase and whatever slight extra restrictions the Brits may have put on guns.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

Plenty more crime stats on the site.

[DonHowson]

$1:

Here are some stats on murder with firearms per capita in various countries:

# 1 South Africa: 31,918
# 2 Colombia: 21,898
# 3 Thailand: 20,032
# 4 United States: 9,369

# 14 Canada: 144

# 39 United Kingdom: 14

I think the above refutes your argument.

These are total gun deaths, not per capita, but it illustrates the point. In 2006 the gun death rate in Canada was 0.4/100,000 and the U.S. was 4/100,000 - TEN times the rate in Canada.

I live in Texas. I don't worry about criminals with guns. I worry about the guy down the street who gets in an augument with a neighbour and starts shooting or the five year old who finds daddy's loaded gun.

Down here they argue that gun control doesn't stop crime. But that has never been the claim. It does reduce gun deaths. You might still be a victim of crime, but you're more likely to live to tell about it.

.../don

[andyt]

DerbyX DerbyX:

andyt andyt:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Canada has less {crime} then the US and if that theory was true then we would see Canada with higher crime and higher crime from east to west not west to east as it is. Same goes for a "liberal" justice system. The evidence shows it does not produce more criminals.

I don't have figures at hand to back this up, but my understanding is that we have very similar crime rates vs the US. We kill/harm each other with knives, screwdrivers, baseball bats and frying pans as much per capita as the US. We have slightly higher property crime. etc. What we don't do, by a factor of 67 to 1, is kill each other with guns as often.

But neither do we have worse crime than the US. And England always had way more restrictive gun laws vs the US, yet this increase in crime Uwish is talking about is recent - likely something else at play. If he wants to make his point, he's going to have to present a solid study, by somebody without an agenda, that shows the link between the crime rate increase and whatever slight extra restrictions the Brits may have put on guns.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita

Plenty more crime stats on the site.

Using that site (where i also got my list from) Britain has 85 crimes/1000 people, the US 80 and Canada 75 - not really much difference is there? But you're right, our rate is lower.

[andyt]

DonHowson DonHowson:

These are total gun deaths, not per capita, but it illustrates the point.

.../don

You're right. It said per capita, but that was actually a link you were meant to click for the per capita figures. Here they are:

# 1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
# 2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
# 3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
# 4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
# 5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
# 6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
# 7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people


# 20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people

# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

So our rate is 5 times less than the US, and Britains is 28 times less.