[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

Yes, but Bart's plan is to remove the minimum wage laws, to give dog fearing 'Merricuns a chance to work for slave wages instead.

I explained this to you ad nauseum already and if you wish to insist on demonstrating your ignorance of market forces that's up to you.

I thought I got it exactly right. You're against illegal immigration. You want to remove the minimum wage. And you said sweeping the floor is only worth $5 (how you established that I don't know), so that means some poor citizen is going to have to do that job for that pay, in the US of B, no?

[BartSimpson]

Right. How is anyone "going to have to do" any job at all? Last I checked, we outlawed forced servitude some 150 years ago.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Right. How is anyone "going to have to do" any job at all? Last I checked, we outlawed forced servitude some 150 years ago.

So the factory floor will just pile up with dirt until it's unusable? What then, build a new one - except construction is also done by illegals - so I guess the new factory won't get built either.

[BartSimpson]

If I post a job at $5 an hour and someone freely takes the job, what's wrong with that?

Likewise, if I post a job and no one takes it until I post a wage of $10 per hour, what's wrong with that?

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

If I post a job at $5 an hour and someone freely takes the job, what's wrong with that?

Likewise, if I post a job and no one takes it until I post a wage of $10 per hour, what's wrong with that?

If illegal immigration was stopped, (by going after the employers) and the 12 million already in the US went home because nobody would give them a job, then your no minimum wage scheme would probably be OK - ie it wouldn't be necessary. But as somebody above pointed out, that will never happen because it's business that wants illegal immigration. "The business of America is business" and the job of govt is to ask "how far do you want me to bend over." Look at what's happening with drilling in the Gulf and the Minerals Management Service.

But you wouldn't like it. If illegal immigration was really stopped, your $65 wouldn't go as far anymore, since the value of lower skilled labor would shoot up. No more profiting off people working for slave wages.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

If illegal immigration was stopped, (by going after the employers) and the 12 million already in the US went home because nobody would give them a job, then your no minimum wage scheme would probably be OK - ie it wouldn't be necessary. But as somebody above pointed out, that will never happen because it's business that wants illegal immigration. "The business of America is business" and the job of govt is to ask "how far do you want me to bend over." Look at what's happening with drilling in the Gulf and the Minerals Management Service.

Your mind is made up on this and, while you're wrong, there is little point in arguing it any further.

andyt andyt:

But you wouldn't like it. If illegal immigration was really stopped, your $65 wouldn't go as far anymore, since the value of lower skilled labor would shoot up. No more profiting off people working for slave wages.

No, the jobs would cease to exist as they would become economically unfeasible. Given that illegals mostly do agricultural and hospitality work (as in hotels and restaurants) then the result would be that much of agriculture in the US would either have to be mechanized or the farms would become unprofitable in the face of foreign competition. With the restaurants and hotels the marginal low-end places that depend on cheap, illegal labor would close.

And that would have little to no effect on my wage as I work in a totally different industry.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

If illegal immigration was stopped, (by going after the employers) and the 12 million already in the US went home because nobody would give them a job, then your no minimum wage scheme would probably be OK - ie it wouldn't be necessary. But as somebody above pointed out, that will never happen because it's business that wants illegal immigration. "The business of America is business" and the job of govt is to ask "how far do you want me to bend over." Look at what's happening with drilling in the Gulf and the Minerals Management Service.

Your mind is made up on this and, while you're wrong, there is little point in arguing it any further.

andyt andyt:

But you wouldn't like it. If illegal immigration was really stopped, your $65 wouldn't go as far anymore, since the value of lower skilled labor would shoot up. No more profiting off people working for slave wages.

No, the jobs would cease to exist as they would become economically unfeasible. Given that illegals mostly do agricultural and hospitality work (as in hotels and restaurants) then the result would be that much of agriculture in the US would either have to be mechanized or the farms would become unprofitable in the face of foreign competition. With the restaurants and hotels the marginal low-end places that depend on cheap, illegal labor would close.

And that would have little to no effect on my wage as I work in a totally different industry.

You think you can just blithely write off agriculture and hospitality industries and not think your wage would not be affected? Where exactly would all this produce come from - do you really think Mexico can pick up the slack? It would certainly encourage more mechanization, but my guess is that food prices would have to go up. Maybe it would reduce the amount of food waste in America.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

You think you can just blithely write off agriculture and hospitality industries and not think your wage would not be affected? Where exactly would all this produce come from - do you really think Mexico can pick up the slack? It would certainly encourage more mechanization, but my guess is that food prices would have to go up. Maybe it would reduce the amount of food waste in America.

Um, yeah. My wage would not be affected by illegal aliens going home and causing portions of the hospitality industry to capsize.

My cost of living might be impacted as food prices rise and, yes, I expect Mexico would be the logical choice to pick up the slack as a few million of their citizens coming home would give them an abundance of cheap farm labor. Frankly, our ending illegal immigration would be a boon to the domestic Mexican economy.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Um, yeah. My wage would not be affected by illegal aliens going home and causing portions of the hospitality industry to capsize.

My cost of living might be impacted as food prices rise and, yes, I expect Mexico would be the logical choice to pick up the slack as a few million of their citizens coming home would give them an abundance of cheap farm labor. Frankly, our ending illegal immigration would be a boon to the domestic Mexican economy.

Given how much hawking Schwarznegger and his wife (and all those other celebs) in those California - Land of food and Wine commercials try to convince people to visit California, my guess is your cost of living would take a big hit.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Given how much hawking Schwarznegger and his wife (and all those other celebs) in those California - Land of food and Wine commercials try to convince people to visit California, my guess is your cost of living would take a big hit.

Perhaps. But then if the hit was big enough due to the loss of agricultural sector farms and jobs then the pressure would be on to allow farms to pay piecework or to remove the minimum wage.

If you think about it, the minimum wage already does not exist for interns, public school students who are forced to 'volunteer', medical students, and etc. so ending it across the board would not be such a radical thing and it would allow a lot of people to acquire job skills to get them out of low wage work.

[CDN_PATRIOT]

So let me get this straight....people are ACTUALLY upset that Arizona passed ananti-immigrant law....still? Really? I think this was a good idea, and those people protesting in S.D. shoud wake the fuck up. I wish we had lawmakers here in Ontario with balls to make laws like that here.

Illegal immigrants should be sent packing immediately. They have no rights, they're not citizens. All they are doing is taking up space. While I'm not always on par with American laws and whatnot, I love this one.

Almost makes me want to go there. If it wasn't so hot.

-J.

[BartSimpson]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

So let me get this straight....people are ACTUALLY upset that Arizona passed ananti-immigrant law....still? Really? I think this was a good idea, and those people protesting in S.D. shoud wake the fuck up. I wish we had lawmakers here in Ontario with balls to make laws like that here.

Illegal immigrants should be sent packing immediately. They have no rights, they're not citizens. All they are doing is taking up space. While I'm not always on par with American laws and whatnot, I love this one.

Almost makes me want to go there. If it wasn't so hot.

-J.

Thank you.

[bootlegga]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

So let me get this straight....people are ACTUALLY upset that Arizona passed ananti-immigrant law....still? Really? I think this was a good idea, and those people protesting in S.D. shoud wake the fuck up. I wish we had lawmakers here in Ontario with balls to make laws like that here.

Illegal immigrants should be sent packing immediately. They have no rights, they're not citizens. All they are doing is taking up space. While I'm not always on par with American laws and whatnot, I love this one.

Almost makes me want to go there. If it wasn't so hot.

-J.

No said an anti illegal immigrant law is bad.

The problem is that potential for all immigrants to be harassed. It singles out one demographic and provides the possibility of treating all Hispanics as criminals. That's the problem.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

No said an anti illegal immigrant law is bad.

The problem is that potential for all immigrants to be harassed. It singles out one demographic and provides the possibility of treating all Hispanics as criminals. That's the problem.

Actually, I don't see how they can prevent citzens, many of whom are Hispanic, from being caught in this net. Somebody comes to police attention - if they're not profiling, could be a white soccer mom with kids, but I'm, betting it's Jose speeding trying to get to work. The cops ask him/her to prove they're in the country legally. Jose, being born in the USA, has no way to prove that, nobody carries their birth certificate around with them, and there is no national citizenship ID. The cops detain Jose while they check him out. Can you say civil rights lawsuit? A few of those, and that law will be quietly non-enforced, if not repealed all together.

Good idea to prevent illegal immigration - go after the employers for that. Don't harrass citizens or toursists - it won't help.

[Gunnair]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Newsbot Newsbot:

Title: Some in Arizona canceling trips to S.D.
Category: Uncle Sam
Posted By: commanderkai
Date: 2010-05-17 00:17:34

Yeah, it's freedom fries all over again!

I miss Liberty Toast...