[EyeBrock]

Nah, like I said. Read the law a bit. A sucker punch is an assault.

A straight guy and a gay guy agreeing to a fight is a consentual fight. If he calls him a 'faggot' during it, it's a factor but the consent to fight was still there.

Pop along to your local courts sometime and watch the free show.

[herbie]

No you are a Tory of the kind I had no qualms to vote for once upon a time.
The ones ones who excuse discrimination (or can't comprehend what it is) used to be right wing flakes.

[EyeBrock]

herbie herbie:

No you are a Tory of the kind I had no qualms to vote for once upon a time.
The ones ones who excuse discrimination (or can't comprehend what it is) used to be right wing flakes.

High praise indeed!

Appreciated herbie.

[Bodah]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Ya see, my theory is, when someone is beating on a gay person, what they'd REALLY like to be doing is having sex with 'em.

That's my theory too, the guy is so in the closet and doesn't even know it yet.

[andyt]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Nah, like I said. Read the law a bit. A sucker punch is an assault.

Exactly - so we don't need a tougher sentence if the assault was accompanied by some hateful words. The punishment should be the same.

[EyeBrock]

Yep....but if the gay guy was singled out and threatened/assaulted purely because he was gay, we have a hate crime and a more serious offence.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

You need to read up on the law a bit.

There is a defence for assault of 'consentual fight'. Think of the usual bar punch-up or the very Canadian hockey fight. Unless there is actual bodily harm (broken bones or injuries more than 'trifiling') it's a just a fight.

Beating up some poor gay because he's gay is very different.

Two Muslim guys fighting over some issue that isn't hate related is a consentual fight. But...if one is a Shia and the other a Sunni and the fight is about the fact that one is a Sunni and one is a Shia only, it is aggravated because of the Shia-Sunni hate factor. It then becomes a hate crime.

The law is not overly simple for a myriad of good reasons.

At the end of the day, protecting a minority against threats from a majority is something that democracies that value the rule of law do.

An assault is still an assault but if the crime happened because the victim was from a specific and identifiable group singled out for bigoted hatred, it’s a hate crime.

But again, you're going with the idea that a straight guy sucker punching another straight guy is a consensual fight, while it he does it to a gay man it's a vicous assault. Assault should be assault. And if a straight and a gay agree to fight, if the straight calls the gay a fucking faggot during the fight, that should not be any reason for the gay to all of a sudden become a victim. Assault should just be assault - no matter what group the aggressor and victim come from.

But here's the problem andyt. Let's say for some reason we're at the same bar and you have a "problem" with me. Even if you sucker punch me, it's still one on one, although it's still assault. But at least I have a chance to defend myself. Gay beaters however, rarely act in a solo effort. It's usually a group that is beating the shit of the poor sod.

[andyt]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Yep....but if the gay guy was singled out and threatened/assaulted purely because he was gay, we have a hate crime and a more serious offence.

I disagree. They should be treated the same.

[EyeBrock]

Well, on that we will part opinions!

[Brenda]

andyt andyt:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Yep....but if the gay guy was singled out and threatened/assaulted purely because he was gay, we have a hate crime and a more serious offence.

I disagree. They should be treated the same.

Damn, we agree

[Dayseed]

andyt andyt:

Why do we need spatial laws for gays? How is an assault against a non-victim group and less serious and deserving of lesser punishment? We just keep dividing society into little groups that are in or out - it's crazy. I think we're too lax on male on male violence, but the sexual orientation of the victim should have no bearing.

The idea behind hate-crime sentencing legislation is that beating somebody because they mouthed you off is less pernicious than beating somebody because they're gay, black or something else. In those other instances, whether you agree with it or not, the victim is in someway linked to their assault.

I understand its a horrible argument that a beaten wife is less deserving of punishment than a random gay person, but it's balanced out by the hate-crime sentencing being just one of many factors to be considered.

[EyeBrock]

Dayseed Dayseed:

andyt andyt:

Why do we need spatial laws for gays? How is an assault against a non-victim group and less serious and deserving of lesser punishment? We just keep dividing society into little groups that are in or out - it's crazy. I think we're too lax on male on male violence, but the sexual orientation of the victim should have no bearing.

The idea behind hate-crime sentencing legislation is that beating somebody because they mouthed you off is less pernicious than beating somebody because they're gay, black or something else. In those other instances, whether you agree with it or not, the victim is in someway linked to their assault.

I understand its a horrible argument that a beaten wife is less deserving of punishment than a random gay person, but it's balanced out by the hate-crime sentencing being just one of many factors to be considered.

I forgot about the pernicious angle!

[BeaverFever]

DS and EB are right. The difference between hate crimes and most others is that the hate crime victim is not attacked because of their relationship with the attacker; in fact often the victim of a hate crime doesn't know the attacker at all and is attacked simply because the belong a certain group (e.g. is gay).

This subjects ALL members of that group to fear of random attack, and therfore a 'hate crime' is actually an attack against that entire group.

The difference between a regular assault and a hate crime is kind-of like the difference between murder and terrorism: the latter is intended to intimidate and victimize a broader population beyond the immediate victims. Hate crimes often have political motives like terrorism and are often associated with or in response to political events or issues of the day like a recent or upcoming election, a gay marriage initiative, a pride parade, etc.

I think what you're missing, andy is that it's not hate crime just because the victim happens to belong a particular group. It's a hate crime if the attack was motivated BECAUSE of that. And don't forget: white people are protected by this as well. A black guy or an Indian guy who beats up someone just because they're white can also be charged with a hate crime.

[RUEZ]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Gays have been particulary targeted in the past for beatings for the sole reason that they were gay.

We made laws to stop this. It's a good thing.

So the regular laws against assaulting someone weren't cutting it? If someone assaults me because they hate me(not likely because I'm very lovable) they will get off a little easier because I'm a straight white male?

[Brenda]

What about that busdriver? Was that a hate crime because he was a busdriver, or just a random attack that deserves less punishment? Or the beheading on the Greyhound bus? Is that deserving of less punishment because the victim was not gay? Or would Li get a harsher punishment if the guy WAS gay?