[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Same thing. They were spouting partisan hack comments about Canadian health care without any true understanding of what it is designed to do. Canadians go south to get quicker treatment and Americans go north (or south to Mexico) simply to be able to afford to get care.

I've heard of seniors going to Canada for cheaper prescription drugs, though I never heard of what you're saying, especially going SOUTH to get health care.

Even then, Canadians use examples and statistics about US health care to tout ours, so who cares? Look at Michael Moore's movie. You really think that would have been a big hit in Canada if it took on our health care system?

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Not different at all. Proximity is exactly the reason Danny boy went abroad. Not wanting to wait is the other and neither is a reasonable argument against Canadian health care. Privatization will only exacerbate proximity problems and wait times might be shortened for the few who can pay larger premiums but be extended to "Can't afford it" to many others.

Eh, what? Not wanting to wait was why Danny Williams went to MIAMI instead of waiting to get his treatment (which was available in Canada, probably in Toronto though, or another major city). He has the money, and he should have every right to get the best health care available. Nobody, at least, not in the US, has an issue with people coming to the US to get health care (Actually, I'm sure they tout it as why it's the best system ever). Proximity is not why, since there was probably a closer facility in Canada, or heck, in New York state that he could have used.

Proximity IS why. Proximity to how quickly he could get care and when you are going to travel large distances then its not as if you simply pick the closest place. Danny didn't have to go to the closest place and I'm pretty certain their were far better hospitals in the US much closer then Miami.

A few Canadians going south to get treatment at the US is easily countered by the reams of Americans heading to Mexico to get treated or use a friends/family members Canadian health card to get free treatment here or even the multitudes getting cheaper drugs.

[N_Fiddledog]

But don't you see how silly this is? You're wanting to damn the woman for something her parents did over 30 years ago when she was five, which is debatable on whether it's even relevant, or not. And you want to fake outrage, because she made an off the cuff retort to a costumed comedian as she boarded a bus?

And you guys say Sarah's the stupid one.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Same thing. They were spouting partisan hack comments about Canadian health care without any true understanding of what it is designed to do. Canadians go south to get quicker treatment and Americans go north (or south to Mexico) simply to be able to afford to get care.

I've heard of seniors going to Canada for cheaper prescription drugs, though I never heard of what you're saying, especially going SOUTH to get health care.

Even then, Canadians use examples and statistics about US health care to tout ours, so who cares? Look at Michael Moore's movie. You really think that would have been a big hit in Canada if it took on our health care system?

You don't recall my posting the link (almost a year ago) during a big health care debate? You were in the thread as I recall. Well here are a few of them:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009 ... care_N.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE57C40C20090813

Canadians use statistics about the US health care to defend our system from those attacking it. We say "if our system is so bad then why do we best you in these categories"?

[DerbyX]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

But don't you see how silly this is? You're wanting to damn the woman for something her parents did over 30 years ago when she was five, which is debatable on whether it's even relevant, or not. And you want to fake outrage, because she made an off the cuff retort to a costumed comedian as she boarded a bus?

And you guys say Sarah's the stupid one.

I'm not damning here but considering all the attacks you have made against Obama you are hardly one to talk. Its no secret you simply back whatever the right wing nuts do so claiming fake outrage is quite frankly projection on your part.

[N_Fiddledog]

And you want to bash Sarah Palin, because she doesn't worship at the idol of Marx. Who are you to judge?

And yes when you call a remark "reprehensible" you're damning it, and the person making it? Basic common sense seems to be hard on the lefty brain. Maybe that's why you all have such a problem with Palin. She's a common sense gal.

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Proximity IS why. Proximity to how quickly he could get care and when you are going to travel large distances then its not as if you simply pick the closest place. Danny didn't have to go to the closest place and I'm pretty certain their were far better hospitals in the US much closer then Miami.

A few Canadians going south to get treatment at the US is easily countered by the reams of Americans heading to Mexico to get treated or use a friends/family members Canadian health card to get free treatment here or even the multitudes getting cheaper drugs.

Proximity is not just a measure of time, but of distance. Danny had this surgery available in Canada, but there was a large wait time for said procedure, so, instead of dealing with the wait time at home, he got immediate care from a distant location.

As such, this can be used as a legitimate criticism of the Canadian health care system because of Danny's choice to skip over the probably lengthy wait time. The lack of resources to administer care, be it beds, equipment, hospitals, or personnel which leads to wait times and delays in care is a flaw of the Canadian system, and the Americans highlighting it is not partisan rhetoric, unless your statement about Americans moving north/south to get treatment is a part of the same rhetoric on the Canadian side.

[andyt]

DerbyX DerbyX:

She isn't responsible what her family did when she was a child that's correct. She is responsible for her reprehensible and disparaging remarks about our health care system when her parents were a direct beneficiary of it.

To be fair tho, Dad had to pay for the health care. Not being a resident it wasn't available to him free, and as someone pointed out, they may not even have had Medi Care in the Yukon then.

But as the article states, more and more Americans are leaving the US to access cheaper health care. That would include Canada, since our costs are so much cheaper than the Americans. So the US may have an all that health care system, but it's only accessible to fewer and fewer people. And even tho it's all that, it's outcomes are poorer in terms of life expectancy than Canada's.

In California, Schwartzenegger wants to make health insurance compulsory because so many people are opting not to buy health insurance because of the recession. This causes the insurers to raise rates for those who still have coverage, which means more of them drop out, and round and round we go.

If we didn't live next to the US, with their dominant insurance companies pushing to get a piece of the Canadian pie, I would be open to looking at different approaches such as France, which seems to have a very good system. But with Herpes in power just itching to end our socialist ways and emulate that great nation USA as it goes down in flames, I'm not for opening any sort of discussion on health care - just try to hang on to what we've got.

[DerbyX]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

And you want to bash Sarah Palin, because she doesn't worship at the idol of Marx. Who are you to judge?

And yes when you call a remark "reprehensible" you're damning it, and the person making it?

Are you claiming that Canadian health care worships at the feet of Marx? You don't really know anything about the Canadian system do you?

Funny but I work in a health care lab, a private health care lab.

No marxism here and yet under Canada's (or rather Ontario's) "socialist system" Ontarians receive cheaper medical tests then would ever be achieved if we were under a US system.

Damn us socialist bastards for wanting to bring affordable health care to all Canadian citizens.

[Brenda]

Shit like that happens in Europe all the time. And insurance even pays if it is clear you can get care in another European country faster or better than in your home country.

If the US and Canada could co-operate, there is a lot of money to be saved.

[andyt]

commanderkai commanderkai:

I've heard of seniors going to Canada for cheaper prescription drugs, though I never heard of what you're saying, especially going SOUTH to get health care.

From the article:

$1:

A report last spring by Deloitte Center for Health Solutions said 750,000 Americans travelled abroad for medical care in 2007, and forecast that number would rise to six million by 2010. That trend far outpaces the number of Canadians coming to the U.S. for medical treatment.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Proximity is not just a measure of time, but of distance. Danny had this surgery available in Canada, but there was a large wait time for said procedure, so, instead of dealing with the wait time at home, he got immediate care from a distant location.

Proximity is relative. Walking down the block to the corner store vs walking a few kms to a different store. Driving 10 minutes to the grocery store or driving 20 minutes to a much further one. Putting the effort into flying means that it is no biggie to spend a few more hours on a plane.

Time spent traveling compared to the time spent doing other activities is the ket factor.

commanderkai commanderkai:

As such, this can be used as a legitimate criticism of the Canadian health care system because of Danny's choice to skip over the probably lengthy wait time. The lack of resources to administer care, be it beds, equipment, hospitals, or personnel which leads to wait times and delays in care is a flaw of the Canadian system, and the Americans highlighting it is not partisan rhetoric, unless your statement about Americans moving north/south to get treatment is a part of the same rhetoric on the Canadian side.

It can be used as a criticism about how our system might improve but when compared against the US is ceases to be valid since our systems are designed differently. Its like comparing a truck vs a sports car. Sure they each do the same thing generally but they are both designed for different needs.

BTW, one factor that almost always gets ignored when comparing us against the US is that the US spends over 2X as much per capita as we do for health care. That factor alone explains how they can afford to have many more specialists/machines so they don't have to wait. We can have their system and ours if we were willing to pay double what we do now.

How much would it cost them to provide the same level of care to every US citizen?

[N_Fiddledog]

andyt andyt:

commanderkai commanderkai:

I've heard of seniors going to Canada for cheaper prescription drugs, though I never heard of what you're saying, especially going SOUTH to get health care.

From the article:

$1:

A report last spring by Deloitte Center for Health Solutions said 750,000 Americans travelled abroad for medical care in 2007, and forecast that number would rise to six million by 2010. That trend far outpaces the number of Canadians coming to the U.S. for medical treatment.

You're talking about cheaper drugs, right?

This thread concerns a supposed hypocrisy by Sarah Palin. That particular complaint is dumb, but want to see what real hypocrisy looks like?

Obama was making closed door deals with drug makers to help get his bill passed, while he was damning the corporate health machine for japping consumers.

[DerbyX]

Brenda Brenda:

Shit like that happens in Europe all the time. And insurance even pays if it is clear you can get care in another European country faster or better than in your home country.

If the US and Canada could co-operate, there is a lot of money to be saved.

Actually we do cooperate. There is a lot of cooperation between health care professionals and hospitals and such. Its just not public knowledge. My lab maintains CAP (College of American Pathologists) certification so that we are legally licensed to preform tests that American drug companies test up here (because its waaaay cheaper then costs in the US).

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

You don't recall my posting the link (almost a year ago) during a big health care debate? You were in the thread as I recall. Well here are a few of them:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009 ... care_N.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE57C40C20090813

No, I don't remember a thread from a year ago, considering it's been a year.

Anyway, one talks about 40,000-80,000 US retirees living in Mexico and how there is an unknown number using the Mexican health care system. What? I lived in the United States for a decade, almost, and I didn't rush back to Canada whenever I needed medical care either.

I'll put this as a counter. How many thousands of Canadians, Mexicans, Europeans, etc live in the United States and receive the benefits of their health care system? Probably a huge number.

The second article from Reuters is even less clear, since they state that 1 million people from California go to Mexico for health care each year. The issue is, how many people from Mexico legally live in California, or use various migrant worker programs to work in the USA? Probably a great deal, no? How can you make the distinction between American citizens and Mexican citizens going south? They can't, and that's why they didn't.

$1:

Canadians use statistics about the US health care to defend our system from those attacking it. We say "if our system is so bad then why do we best you in these categories"?

HARDLY. Look at Michael Moore's movie, for example. Any attempt by any Canadian to compare the US and Canadian health care systems usually results in comments about how x number are uninsured, or so on and so forth. The same can be said about US crime statistics too. It's not just because we're "defending" our health care system, but rather many Canadians like making these comparisons to hide the flaws with our own system.