[Zipperfish]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Me, I think a lot of Canadians think GW is bollocks. The ones I meet and work with do, obviously your social circle doesn't.

Give me definitive evidence and I'll believe. The shit I've seen so far doesn't convince me at all.

I wasn't going by my social circle. I'm just going on the polls.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/22/environment-poll.html

There's actually a bunch of them. Results vary, but always well over 50%. Probably will have dropped a bit with the recent scandal--so perhaps all the more reason the Conservatives should be 'fessing up, don't you think?

Regardless, you can't deny that it would be refreshing if the Conservatives actually came out and said it, instead of the mealy-mouthed aphorisms they're currently floating.

[gigs]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Me, I think a lot of Canadians think GW is bollocks. The ones I meet and work with do, obviously your social circle doesn't.

Give me definitive evidence and I'll believe. The shit I've seen so far doesn't convince me at all.

I wasn't going by my social circle. I'm just going on the polls.

[url]
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/ ... -poll.html[/url]

There's actually a bunch of them. Results vary, but always well over 50%.

Regardless, you can't deny that it would be refreshing if the Conservatives actually came out and said it, instead of the mealy-mouthed aphorisms Prentice is spewing.

A lot has changed since March 2007

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story ... 6dd92d4ebe

[EyeBrock]

That poll is from 2007. I think things have changed. Bad effort Zip.

[Zipperfish]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Harper and all parties need to pay lip service to it, even though they may not believe it. It's politics. I wish we had the guts that the politicians in Austrailia had because they definately don't have problems calling this a turd in the punch bowl.

Exactly. It would just be nice if they were honest about it. But like you said--it's politics. Honesty and politics are pretty much mutually exclusive.

[Zipperfish]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

That poll is from 2007. I think things have changed. Bad effort Zip.

As I said there are a number of them. You can Google "global warming poll". The internet is really an amazing tool.

OK, so let's say you're correct, the polls are wrong, and in fact, everyone thinks GW is a pile of crap. Then why won't the Conservatives come out and say it? Riddle me that!

I believe that is what is called, in the internet jargon:

[EyeBrock]

Hardly. Like I say, I'll believe when I see real proof. I don't count the odd shot of a nice polar bear on an ice-floe as proof. It might work for the masses but me, I like to go on proof not charismatic arguments.

[Zipperfish]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Hardly. Like I say, I'll believe when I see real proof. I don't count the odd shot of a nice polar bear on an ice-floe as proof. It might work for the masses but me, I like to go on proof not charismatic arguments.

Maybe you're not following the logic: if everyone thinks climate change is crap--like you appear to hold, then it would only make sense for the Conservatives to appeal to majority. You're basically saying that not only the Conservatives obfuscating their real agenda on climate change, but they're doing so pointlessly. IN other words, they're not just liars, they're stupid liars!

[EyeBrock]

Oooooh! "Obfuscating" Cool!

I dunno what is going on in the minds of those evil gits, the Tories, so I can't speak for those doubting demons.

Me, I think the GW is BS but if it cuts down on pollution and the raping of the planets forests and marine life, I'm all for it. I just think it's a load of old bollocks.

[N_Fiddledog]

I'm with Zip. I don't think Harper ever has swallowed the AGW onion. In fact...

$1:

Stephen Harper derided the global treaty (Kyoto) and questioned the science of climate change in a 2002 fundraising letter sent to members of his now-defunct Canadian Alliance party...

Kyoto is essentially a socialist scheme to suck money out of wealth-producing nations,” says the letter, signed by Harper.

“Implementing Kyoto will cripple the oil and gas industry, which is essential to the economies of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia . . .

“Workers and consumers everywhere in Canada will lose. THERE ARE NO CANADIAN WINNERS UNDER THE KYOTO ACCORD.”

He also blasted the treaty for targeting carbon dioxide — which he said is “essential to life” — and played down the science of climate change as “tentative and contradictory.”

http://www.lilith-ezine.com/articles/en ... Kyoto.html

However...Then he becomes Prime Minister. All of a sudden he's got a new set of problems. I also, saw a poll one time on Canadians opinions on AGW. My impression was overall Canadians were negative to AGW. Quebec however was overwhelmingly positive. I forget how Ontario swung. I'd bet about 50/50. You can guess how Alberta polled.

Then there's international opinion. In the open public we've seen the pressure, coming from international bodies, put on Harper to play the political game. You can guess what's happening behind closed doors. Internationally politicians are rubbing their hands together over the juicy perks they see coming from global warming politics. They don't need Canada to play fly in the ointment.

Most importantly though, there's America. Written into the Waxman-Markey bill recently passed by, I think it's the House, there a clause allowing for economy killing tariffs against countries like Canada if they don't play ball. Obama has been making that threat since his election campaign.

So from a political point of view Harper is up against it, even if he does think privately that AGW is pseudo-scientific claptrap.

The way he's dealt with this thus far is he plays lip service to the pro tax and grab, then parcel it out, political wish list of national, and international power brokers, but he's never actually done much.

At the same time him and Prentice have always played a game of good cop, bad cop where Harper is the public face talking the need to green. In the background however Prentice is alleviating the concerns of businesses which will be harmed in a major way by measures to demonize, and control CO2. Prentice is also the guy Harper usually sends to negotiate on this issue, like he did in Bali.

On Australia, Ride, you're right. It did go negative, but that was only after they started talking actual economy killing measures to control CO2. Before that Rudd was voted in on a pro-control platform.

So Harper says let America move first. He has an Ace int the hole. Even if Obamicans do sign something in Copenhagen, they then have to come home and deal with the American public. A cap and trade bill will never pass (I think it's the Senate). Not with the 2010 mid-terms coming up, and after that the Democrats won't have the votes.

However Obama has one card left to play. People never realized the major implications of something the EPA was doing in the background. They were changing the definition of the word "pollution", so they could slip CO2 into coverage of the term. This will allow the EPA to govern how, or how much any business releasing CO2 into the atmosphere does it. Nobody will see the full implications of that one until it's acted upon.

If that happens, Canada is tits up. They've got to play the CO2 game. It's a killer. Unlike with Australia, even when we see the full danger of it, it will be too late. If we want to trade with America, we'll have to play.

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

I'm with Zip. I don't think Harper ever has swallowed the AGW onion. In fact...


...

However...Then he becomes Prime Minister. All of a sudden he's got a new set of problems. I also saw a poll one time on Canadians opinions on AGW. My impression was overall Canadians were negative to AGW. Quebec however was overwhelmingly positive. I forget how Ontario swung. I'd bet about 50/50. You can guess how Alberta polled.

Then there's international opinion. In the open public we've seen the pressure on Harper to play the political game coming from international bodies. You can guess what's happening behind closed doors. Internationally politicians are rubbing their hands together over the juicy perks they see coming from global warming politics. They don't need Canada to play fly in the ointment.

Most importantly though, there's America. Written into the Waxman-Markey bill recently passed by, I think it's the House, there a clause allowing for economy killing tariffs against countries like Canada if they don't play ball. Obama has been making that threat since his election campaign.

So from a political point of view Harper is up against it even if he does think privately that AGW is pseudo-scientific claptrap.

The way he's dealt with this thus far is he plays lip service to the pro tax and grab, then parcel it out, political wish list of national, and international power brokers, but he's never actually done much.

At the same time him and Prentice have always played a game of good cop, bad cop where Harper is the public face talking the need to green. In the background however Prentice is alleviating the concerns of businesses which will be harmed in a major way by measures to demonize, and control CO2. Prentice is also the guy Harper usually sends to negotiate.

On Australia, Ride, you're right. It did go negative, but that was only after they started talking actual economy killing measures to control CO2. Before that Rudd was voted in on a pro-control platform.

So Harper says let America move first. He has an Ace int the hole. Even if Obamicans do sign something in Copenhagen, they then have to come home and deal with the American public. A cap and trade bill will never pass, I think it's the Senate. Not with the 2010 mid-terms coming up, and after that the Democrats won't have the votes.

However Obama has one card left to play. People never realized the major implications of something the EPA was doing in the background. The were changing the definition of the word "pollution", so they could slip CO2 into coverage of the term. This will allow the EPA to govern how any business releasing CO2 into the atmosphere. Nobody will see the full implications of that one until it's acted upon.

If that happens, Canada is tits up. They've got to play the CO2 game. It's a killer. Unlike with Australia, even when we see the full danger of it, it will be too late. If we want to trade with America, we'll have to play it.

So Harper is lying to keep Quebec happy. How remarkably Liberal of him.

Actually, I've never seen much in the way of polls indicating that the majority of Canadians don't believe in AGW. I've never seen any actually, though support has been dropping the last few years, and probably dropped substantially thanks to the antics of Phil Jones et al.

It would be nice if they came out and admitted though.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Fuck the states, let them fight for their oil in the middle east. We'll sell ours elsewhere. I'm sure there'd be NO shortage of customers.

I'll betcha those economy killing tariffs won't affect the oil imports into the US. You can BET YOUR ASS that OUR oil will be the ONLY thing not nailed with a punitive tariff if we don't play ball.
All I can hope for is when the shit hits the fan, SOMEONE in Canada will have the balls to say, "Fuck you, we're not playing your game", and mean it!

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

So Harper is lying to keep Quebec happy. How remarkably Liberal of him.

How typically you, man. From a lengthy explanation of multiple points you snag a tiny one, and present it like it's the only one that matters.

[EyeBrock]

Zip, I can do a poll with the Tory members and Liberal/NDP members right now. It will be plus or minus 5% for a given margin of error on the sample size.

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Actually, I've never seen much in the way of polls indicating that the majority of Canadians don't believe in AGW. I've never seen any actually,

"Belief" is all over the board, depending how you ask the question, and who you ask it of.

The more important measure may be whether or not Canadians are prepared to act upon it. With that it depends on whose polling.

If you go to Greenpeace, you'll get this...

$1:

Nearly two-thirds of Canadians want to see Canada take action to tackle global warming despite the economic crisis, according to new polling released today by four Canadian observer organizations at the UN climate talks in Poznan, Poland.

http://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/pre ... ?mode=send

Elsewhere it's more like this...

$1:

Only one in five respondents - or 20 per cent - said they'd spend extra money to reduce climate change. That's down from 28 per cent a year ago.

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/ ... 6dd92d4ebe

[Zipperfish]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Zip, I can do a poll with the Tory members and Liberal/NDP members right now. It will be plus or minus 5% for a given margin of error on the sample size.

Can you demonstrate what analysis you used to get the 5%.

Myself, I would be ... skeptical of that number..

I think Trevor already demonstrated earlier that this board, unlike the population of Canada, is mostly Conservative.

But the fact remains--if Canadians really believe climate change is bunch of crap, then why is Harper lying about the Conservative position? It makes no sense. If the Conservatives really believed that the majority of Canadians rejected climate change, they would reflect that in their policy in a New York minute. Yet they don't.