[PluggyRug]

herbie herbie:

Almost none require you to join the union before you can be hired.

Pretty obvious your bias is due to ignorance.

Right. Then how about electrical contract work offered to union members only.

Just look at the fiasco of Toronto and it's inflexible union workforce.

The attitude of the workers during the garbage stike epitomises all thats wrong with some of the unions. My only bias is I once worked in a unionised shop and saw at first hand the tactics of shop stupids er stewards and their ilk.

[Lemmy]

herbie herbie:

No, the only way to get a job at a union site is to put in an application like everywhere else. You get in the union after you get hired on. Usually after 90 days.
Most union shops require a posting must be offered to union members first, then to new hires.
Almost none require you to join the union before you can be hired.

Pretty obvious your bias is due to ignorance.

And high-paying non-union shops are equally difficult to get into. Toyota here in my hometown hires through a temp-agency. New employees earn shit pay through the temp office while the company tests them out. If they're lucky, after a year or so they might get offered a job at the shop wage.

[EyeBrock]

The CAW are a case in point. Overpaid. Their high pay makes the product more expensive, people don't buy the product.

Why should we pay guys at Ford more than educated and highly trained paramedics?

The unions played a big part in the demise of auto production in North America.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Oh noes EyeBrock you dont understand, the reason we pay them so much is so they can created quality products. Imagine how long your Ford would last if we paid them less! Instead of your transmission falling apart after your 5 year warranty is up it would fall apart after 3 years. Or how annoying would it be if you bought a new Ranger, and after a week of owning it you notice, the suicide doors didnt line up and you had to take it back to the dealership for a week so they could fix it.... or right that already fucking happens.

Cut the wages, if you cant make a living off your slightly skilled labor too fucking bad. You should have stayed in school skippy.

[gigs]

Lemmy Lemmy:

And high-paying non-union shops are equally difficult to get into. Toyota here in my hometown hires through a temp-agency. New employees earn shit pay through the temp office while the company tests them out. If they're lucky, after a year or so they might get offered a job at the shop wage.

There never seems to be a shortage of willing Auto Workers for any company. Evidence that very little skill is required yet a big paycheque will follow.

[Lemmy]

What happened was it got to be too easy to appease unions with wage hikes rather than fight with them and risk production gaps due to strikes. The costs were just passed on to the customer. The mentality among the CAW and the Big Three was "Fuck the customer, let's all get rich". The unions made ridiculous wages, the shareholders made ridiculous dividends from corporate profits, the white-collars made ridculous management salaries and the dealers and salespeople made ridiculous commissions. All the while, they pumped out vehicles of ridiculously poor quality. Well, lo and behold, the customer got smart and started saying "Fuck you back, I'll go buy a Toyota." Then the climate and conspiracy of entitlement came tumbling down. Now, both labour and management need to re-evaluate their share of the pie, keeping in mind that the consumer needs a piece as well.

It's neither labour's nor management's fault. It's both, shared.

[EyeBrock]

I agree again Lemmy, there is lots of blame to go around. The unions did their bit though and management were quite happy to go along with it.

A curse on both their houses.

[dog77_1999]

herbie herbie:

Hey Brownshirt, I build networks not cars. I'm also the Boss not one of the peons. But spent 30 years as one of them.
It doesn't take too much to figure out:
A: the less you pay the shittier the worker you get, an]d the one who offers to work for less is the first you fire because they already know they're not worth as much as the good workers.
B: the more they rollback pay everywhere else, the less money the customers have to buy my shit.
C: The longer the bullshit you guys spout goes on the stupider, pettier and cheaper the people who swallow it become. It's real easy to whine that you make $12 in the gyppo mill and the guy in the union mill makes $25 so he gets too much. It's pretty hard to admit you're not fucking good enough to get hired on at the union mill.

I am glad you think so highly of your employees. I am glad I don't for someone like that.

[ASLplease]

Is Ford willing to open their financial books to Union auditors? I think this would be a good gesture if they want concessions from the union.

[PluggyRug]

ASLplease ASLplease:

Is Ford willing to open their financial books to Union auditors? I think this would be a good gesture if they want concessions from the union.

Ok, then a reciprocal agreement, let the unions open their books.

[ASLplease]

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

ASLplease ASLplease:

Is Ford willing to open their financial books to Union auditors? I think this would be a good gesture if they want concessions from the union.

Ok, then a reciprocal agreement, let the unions open their books.

Could you please clarify what you are hoping to accomplish?


open the books to the unions or the union workers?

I believe that the workers affectively have their books open to Ford.

And, isn't opening the union books similar to opening the books to Ford's legal councel?

[PluggyRug]

ASLplease ASLplease:

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

ASLplease ASLplease:

Is Ford willing to open their financial books to Union auditors? I think this would be a good gesture if they want concessions from the union.

Ok, then a reciprocal agreement, let the unions open their books.

Could you please clarify what you are hoping to accomplish?


open the books to the unions or the union workers?

I believe that the workers affectively have their books open to Ford.

And, isn't opening the union books similar to opening the books to Ford's legal councel?

Sorry about the confusion.

The union books open to Fords auditors. Reciprocal agreement.

[ASLplease]

Ford doesn;t keep payroll records?

[herbie]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

The CAW are a case in point. Overpaid. Their high pay makes the product more expensive, people don't buy the product.

Why should we pay guys at Ford more than educated and highly trained paramedics?

The unions played a big part in the demise of auto production in North America.

There it is in a nutshell. A gets paid better than B so you should rollback A's wage because B can't organize for shit because they're <nailed with a restrictive Essential Services><some other reason><are apples vs oranges>.
Do the CAW members who make the cars earn as much as people who the cars? No.
So let's get it out: what's a "ridiculous wage"? $10? $15 $20?
Let's keep in mind that the ladies I asked wanted $18 - $20 an hour and a minimum number of hours weekly to clean my goddam house. Or do you more admire the disgusting scabulent immigrant lady that heard I paid my 14yr old $25 every Sunday to clean my office and wash the floors and her company bid $89 a month to clean it twice a week? With sub-contracted labour?

[EyeBrock]

The difference is that paramedics provide a service.

Ford build a product. If the product costs too much or the quality isn't there, or both, people stop buying the product. These guys outpriced themselves.

You miss the point totally.