[ridenrain]

Please show me where I said that Harper was opposed to the mission in Afghanistan.

[Wada]

You've implied it many times by singling out "the Liberals put us there".

[ridenrain]

Wada Wada:

You've implied it many times by singling out "the Liberals put us there".

lol.

[poquas]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Please show me where I said that Harper was opposed to the mission in Afghanistan.

ridenrain ridenrain:

You mean you supported the mission when the Liberals were in charge

This is at least the third time you've made this very same statement to belittle my previous approval of the mission and to suggest I'm a Liberal supporter.

Now since Harper supported this very stance, how is the question even relevant other than in your childish way to make some kind of point?

[Gunnair]

poquas poquas:

I supported our involvement initially, but it's become obvious that there is no way to actually win this.

What is the end goal and how do we achieve it?

How and when do we leave?

It's impossible to win when you’re fighting an insurgency, and I think we've lost enough. The purpose of our being there was to remove the Taliban. We (NATO) can't do it. We don't know who or where they all are and unless somebody is already negotiating a peace with them, it's only going to cost us more lives.

I'm curious as to why you would have supported it intially and now don't because of an insurgency.

Even the most cursory of research into previous conflicts in Afghanistan would have shown you that historically, the Afghans use guerilla warfare - it's rather common when inferior militaries go against superior ones. The British and the Soviets found that out the hard way.

A little less cheerleading and a bit more serious thought might be in order next time you feel like hopping on the bandwagon for the troops to be sent in. That or don't get cold feet so easily.

[Thanos]

It probably went off the rails when the mission got changed from destroying Al Qaeda and into nation-building. Add in the loss of American focus due to the build-up for the unneccessary war in Iraq and the makings of the policy debacle are easier to understand. Mission creep: another legacy of Vietnam that wasn't ever supposed to be repeated but inevitably was.

Too many critical years that could have spent in rooting out the Taliban were lost and there's no coming back from such a huge mistake. I don't think that the Talibs are unbeatable but we're clearly still doing something wrong in how we're fighting them. Propping up a corrupt Karzai government that blatantly rigged an election as much as the Iranians recently did doesn't do too much good either for our bona fides as the guarantors of democratic purity.

[poquas]

Gunnair Gunnair:

I'm curious as to why you would have supported it intially and now don't because of an insurgency.

Even the most cursory of research into previous conflicts in Afghanistan would have shown you that historically, the Afghans use guerilla warfare - it's rather common when inferior militaries go against superior ones. The British and the Soviets found that out the hard way.

A little less cheerleading and a bit more serious thought might be in order next time you feel like hopping on the bandwagon for the troops to be sent in. That or don't get cold feet so easily.

First of all I suggest you review you history a little more carefully. We went in there to get Bin Laden and his crew. That failed and then it was a matter of expelling the Taliban and a country wide reconstruction project. That has also failed.

The country has changed very little and the Taliban still has pretty much free run. Please explain the point of being there. 130 Canadian will have died for nothing in the end never mind the other countries involved. Tens of thousands of civilians killed or wounded and for the most part would rather see us go anyway. Afghanistan will not change and we’ll just be part of a long list of invaders that failed to convert their country to one like ours.

It’s got nothing to do with cold feet. It was a badly planned invasion that has gone off the rails. I don’t support it any more. The senior officers from most of our NATO allies are questioning the reasons. If you want to see how this is going to end up, look at Iraq. It's falling apart.

What's your reason for staying?

[Gunnair]

Gunnair Gunnair:

I'm curious as to why you would have supported it intially and now don't because of an insurgency.

Even the most cursory of research into previous conflicts in Afghanistan would have shown you that historically, the Afghans use guerilla warfare - it's rather common when inferior militaries go against superior ones. The British and the Soviets found that out the hard way.

A little less cheerleading and a bit more serious thought might be in order next time you feel like hopping on the bandwagon for the troops to be sent in. That or don't get cold feet so easily.

$1:

First of all I suggest you review you history a little more carefully. We went in there to get Bin Laden and his crew. That failed and then it was a matter of expelling the Taliban and a country wide reconstruction project. That has also failed.

I'd be surprised to think that anyone with a political clue would believe that once the Taliban was finished, that we'd walk away. I'd also be surprised that anyone with a political clue would think that reconstructing a country such as Afghanistan would only a take a few years and not many lives. One of those, "put some thought into what you support" moments, I think.

$1:

The country has changed very little and the Taliban still has pretty much free run. Please explain the point of being there. 130 Canadian will have died for nothing in the end never mind the other countries involved. Tens of thousands of civilians killed or wounded and for the most part would rather see us go anyway. Afghanistan will not change and we’ll just be part of a long list of invaders that failed to convert their country to one like ours.

Finishing the the job that was started. It is the height of irresponsibility to knock over the government and then tuck tail without ensuring the replacement can do the job.

$1:

It’s got nothing to do with cold feet. It was a badly planned invasion that has gone off the rails. I don’t support it any more. The senior officers from most of our NATO allies are questioning the reasons. If you want to see how this is going to end up, look at Iraq. It's falling apart.

What's your reason for staying?

A badly planned invasion... that you supported. Now, that it's proving as difficult as many foresaw, you no longer support it.

Curious.

I believe the reason to stay is to see through the reason we knocked the Taliban government on the head to begin with. Create a stable Afghanistan, which ain't done by running away from the mess you've helped create by your previous blind support.

[poquas]

I'm thrilled to hear that your willing to sacrifice our young men and women to a people that are not willing to accept your way of life.

[Thanos]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Finishing the the job that was started. It is the height of irresponsibility to knock over the government and then tuck tail without ensuring the replacement can do the job.

In hindsight some "blast 'em to hell and then leave" gunboat diplomacy might have been the more logical option.

$1:

I believe the reason to stay is to see through the reason we knocked the Taliban government on the head to begin with.

It doesn't make much sense to honour our dead by leaving troops there indefinitely, and quite probably uselessly, just to create more of our dead. With the glaring examples of the various Bush era failures available for our viewing it should be stated that only a fool thinks that sticking with the same failed tactics, strategies, and philosophies is the correct thing to do. No offense intended of course.

$1:

Create a stable Afghanistan....,

Going by history's verdict this goal should now unfortunately be seen as an existential impossibility. If the British and Soviets couldn't do it, even by using all the brutality they were capable of, then what makes us thinks that we're going to do it with drone attacks and photo-ops. Imposing our systems on an Muslim world that doesn't seem to want anything to do with them is not, in the end run, logical. By comparison, restoring democracy and Western values to the off-the-rails fascist states of Japan And Germany in World War 2 will be seen as infinitely easier in hindsight. I personally have no hope anymore that what we're doing in Afghanistan will have any sort of lasting value.

[Gunnair]

poquas poquas:

I'm thrilled to hear that your willing to sacrifice our young men and women to a people that are not willing to accept your way of life.

I wasn't. I didn't think the mission was a great idea, but Chretian had to do something to save face. A 'badly planned' mission to Afghanistan, as you call it, seemed like the best way to save face with the US after turning them down in Iraq. Now that we've committed ourselves, we'd better man-up as a nation and take the cost. That's called responsibility.

I'm thrilled to hear you were such a great cheerleader for the "badly planned" mission, and were willing to sacrifice our young men and women to a people who were not willing to accept your way of life.

[EyeBrock]

And Gunnair, I'm thrilled that you restrained yourself, as a serving sailor in the Canadian Forces, and didn't mention the fact that you have put your life on the line, for your country many times in the two decades you have served.

Unlike others that diss your efforts.

Ready Aye Ready.

[Lemmy]

Thanos Thanos:

Going by history's verdict this goal should now unfortunately be seen as an existential impossibility. If the British and Soviets couldn't do it, even by using all the brutality they were capable of, then what makes us thinks that we're going to do it with drone attacks and photo-ops. Imposing our systems on an Muslim world that doesn't seem to want anything to do with them is not, in the end run, logical. By comparison, restoring democracy and Western values to the off-the-rails fascist states of Japan And Germany in World War 2 will be seen as infinitely easier in hindsight. I personally have no hope anymore that what we're doing in Afghanistan will have any sort of lasting value.

...and that's why we need to end this mission immediately. Our boys and girls have done the best that anyone could do. They've fought the good fight, completing their mission with honour and professionalism. But all the good that can be done for the Afghanis by the international community has been done. The Afghanis must scrape out their own future now.

Given that this has become a zero-sum game, the price of another fallen Canadian is too high. Our young men and women are too precious. Our Armed Forces are too valuable to be wasted building nations where nations can't be built.

[Elvis]

Thanos your view on this issue is very lucid and correct. But in my opinion Canada will be in Afghanistan as long as the US want us .... no demand that we must stay there.

After all the only interest Canada has in Afghanistan is to please the US. Of course this can seem a bit lame but after all they are the only hyper power in the world and they are our neighbour and a major trade partner. Do our soldier need to die for this .... well that is a very good question.

[poquas]

When the mission changed from getting Bin Laden to ousting the Taliban, we should have packed up and gone home. That was all I agreed to, not a long term occupation.