[ridenrain]

Narwhal isn't Nanook but it's a start.
Can't find anyhing earlier?

[Canadian_Mind]

Ugg, this has been argued to death.

Every government, Liberal or Conservative, has been blowing smoke up the Canadian Publics ass over arctic sovereignty since Louis Stephen St-Laurent (who was the guy who approved the Arrow Program).

If you want to get into the partisan history debate, our two greatest assets in the north right now are the CP 140 Aurora's and the Coast Guard's Icebreakers. All the Aurora's and all but one or two of the icebreakers (not sure about Terry Fox) were purchased under a Liberal government. As a further kick in the nuts, all but one of the icebreakers purchased by the Liberals and all the Aurora's were purchased by a Liberal government led by none other that Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

Why must it be a history debate? Cause the last time we did anything significant to strengthen the presence in the arctic was the purchase of the Aurora's 30 years ago. Harper is going to have to do alot better than the previous Liberal regime to best the current record. 6 slushbreakers and one unarmed icebreaker really doesn't cut the mustard. Even sticking anti-ship, anti-air, and anti-sub kit on the two heavy icebreakers we already got, plus the new one he's trying to commission would be a step in the right direction, even if it is even possible.

As for kitting the guys in Afghanistan over defending the arctic, we're 7.5 years into this war now, and only within the last couple years has the momentmum picked up for vehicle upgrades and replacement, which wont be ready till 2013... Thats 2 years too late for the war and a solid 12 years after the war started. Thats not talking about the choppers needed either that will also be delivered long after the war is finished. Both the Liberals and Conservatives have failed miserably here. At the rate it takes to get replacement vehicles for a warzone, I can only imagine procurement for any arctic kit wont happen till well after 2015, which is probably when we are going to need it most.

Again, both the Liberals and the Conservatives are to Blame. Diefen-nutcase, Mulrooney, Chretien, and Martin for doing nothing, and P.E.T. and Harper for not doing nearly enough.

[OldChum]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Right now the priority must be protecting Canadians in Afghanistan.

Denying the past is just a red herring. You know full well that Harper's ship contracts could end just as quickly as Mulroney's helicopter contracts if his minority government falls.

Hell he has not even given or written the contracts nor the specs so don,t expect to see them for 10 yrs. This is to little to late he will run to someone else cause it is cheaper to get the US to help . This is typical of our governments now and past .

[ridenrain]

.. and here the greenies were all telling us that the artic was going to be ice free by next year or so.

[OldChum]

Yea and Harper first said this is what we would build, then fell back on the lighter and less robust ships. Now he is back to this version wonder when he turns the spinning wheel off and just gets the forces what they need .

[bootlegga]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Ugg, this has been argued to death.

Every government, Liberal or Conservative, has been blowing smoke up the Canadian Publics ass over arctic sovereignty since Louis Stephen St-Laurent (who was the guy who approved the Arrow Program).

If you want to get into the partisan history debate, our two greatest assets in the north right now are the CP 140 Aurora's and the Coast Guard's Icebreakers. All the Aurora's and all but one or two of the icebreakers (not sure about Terry Fox) were purchased under a Liberal government. As a further kick in the nuts, all but one of the icebreakers purchased by the Liberals and all the Aurora's were purchased by a Liberal government led by none other that Pierre Elliot Trudeau.

Why must it be a history debate? Cause the last time we did anything significant to strengthen the presence in the arctic was the purchase of the Aurora's 30 years ago. Harper is going to have to do alot better than the previous Liberal regime to best the current record. 6 slushbreakers and one unarmed icebreaker really doesn't cut the mustard. Even sticking anti-ship, anti-air, and anti-sub kit on the two heavy icebreakers we already got, plus the new one he's trying to commission would be a step in the right direction, even if it is even possible.

As for kitting the guys in Afghanistan over defending the arctic, we're 7.5 years into this war now, and only within the last couple years has the momentmum picked up for vehicle upgrades and replacement, which wont be ready till 2013... Thats 2 years too late for the war and a solid 12 years after the war started. Thats not talking about the choppers needed either that will also be delivered long after the war is finished. Both the Liberals and Conservatives have failed miserably here. At the rate it takes to get replacement vehicles for a warzone, I can only imagine procurement for any arctic kit wont happen till well after 2015, which is probably when we are going to need it most.

Again, both the Liberals and the Conservatives are to Blame. Diefen-nutcase, Mulrooney, Chretien, and Martin for doing nothing, and P.E.T. and Harper for not doing nearly enough.

A truly excellent post. I have long maintained that none of our PMs has done much of anything for the CF since Pearson and St. Laurent. That was most likely because they lived through the horrors of WW2 and didn’t want to see WW3.

That was basically my point too. Stop pointing fingers and start finding a solution. However, a certain Liberal basher seems to think his own party is above reproach.

[ridenrain]

bootlegga bootlegga:

That was basically my point too. Stop pointing fingers and start finding a solution.

Who would have guessed from your first post...

bootlegga bootlegga:

$1:

"They keep promising and repackaging things," said Huebert, one of the country's foremost academics in Arctic study.

"I'm seeing a lot of smoke and mirrors and not a lot of action."

That's what most of us see too.

[bootlegga]

That wasn't a partisan jab, that was pointing out that they still haven't done anything other than promise the same shit over and over and over. Is there a mention of Harper or the Conservatives? Nope. Yet here is your wonderful riposte...

ridenrain ridenrain:

I'd like to see more too but right now protecting Canadian troops in Chretien's war is more important. Aside from those subs, what have the Libs got to show after their decade of majorities?

Two quick partisan jabs, which I responded to by calling out Harper's broken election promise. Hell, I even edited out the "Harper Sovereignty Station" from the picture...and unlike you, I can see the errors of the both parties. You seem to refuse to accept that Harper is anything less than a saint.

ridenrain ridenrain:

Denying the past is just a red herring. You know full well that Harper's ship contracts could end just as quickly as Mulroney's helicopter contracts if his minority government falls.

And here you follow it up with more nastiness.

Way to take the high road...

[ridenrain]

Cowboy up and drop the passive agressive BS.
I'm more than vocal saying that what I wanted in a government hasn't come true but
Harper's been on for 3 minority years and the Liberals have been in for 13 majority years.

When I said that in my first post, you shit all over me.

You can't play neutral when your only slagging one side.

[bootlegga]

More than vocal? Hardly. Your criticism is usually something along the lines of;

Well, I don't like it, but the Liberals stole money from taxpayers, so what are you going to do?

Show me one post where you really criticize them (and without reosrting to Liberal bashing) and then I'll believe it. Until then, you're just another hack with blinders on.

[ridenrain]

bootlegga bootlegga:

More than vocal? Hardly. Your criticism is usually something along the lines of;

Well, I don't like it, but the Liberals stole money from taxpayers, so what are you going to do?

Show me one post where you really criticize them (and without reosrting to Liberal bashing) and then I'll believe it. Until then, you're just another hack with blinders on.

This is a no win for me because you'll simply shoot down every thing I post but here it is for the record.

current-events-f59/federal-government-blocks-sale-of-mda-space-division-t63022.html
Here I am clearly against the government blocking of MDA to a US company.

current-events-f59/cape-breton-in-space-boondoggle-t27901.html
Cape Brenton space center.

current-events-f59/baird-announces-85-9-million-to-help-canada-adapt-to-climat-t28858.html
Baird announces $85.9 million to help Canada adapt to climate

current-events-f59/plan-to-keep-rcmp-on-ships-sinks-t70009.html
RCMP Cruise ships for olympics

canadian-politics-f17/canadians-question-additional-aboriginal-entitlements-t16001.html
Shooting down further Abo spending.

[bootlegga]

First thing I noticed; I never posted in a single one of these threads, and frankly I don't remember seeing any of them. Kudos!

The second thing I notice is that in most of them, there is some deflection or jab towards the 'green mafia' or Liberals or some other left wing group.

The third is that the harshest criticism I could find was "I don't like something Harper is doing #2". It's not nearly as harsh as you are on the Liberals.

Having said all that, congrats on showing that in some small way you can criticize your own boys. I guess I have to learn to accept baby steps and not expect giant leaps when it comes to being critical of your party.

Kudos sir!

[ridenrain]

Thank you for the objectivity.
It's only been 3+ years and I'm positive that any gov would become corrupt given the run the Libs had. That's why strong majorities in our system scare me.

[Canadian_Mind]

bootlegga bootlegga:

A truly excellent post. I have long maintained that none of our PMs has done much of anything for the CF since Pearson and St. Laurent. That was most likely because they lived through the horrors of WW2 and didn’t want to see WW3.

That was basically my point too. Stop pointing fingers and start finding a solution. However, a certain Liberal basher seems to think his own party is above reproach.

And you pointing fingers is going to help matters? Fact is that we, as members of this forum and as Canadian citizens spend to much time tossing blame at each other and each others respective parties they support, and not enough time taking action. This is why we lost the Arrow. It was a Liberal project, and therefore bad. EH-101 was a Conservative project, and therefore bad. Both cancelled

Both were cut to conserve dollars, but not even a single decade passed after these cancellations before it became clear that to cancel the projects was wrong.

[bootlegga]

I did not have like the EH-101 cancellation, but I can't say without a doubt it was the wrong decision.

Given the problems the Coast Guard is having with the Cormorant, we may have avoided buying a lemon. And the cost was phenomenal (almost $5 billion for 28 helos in 1993), while the Cyclone will cost about $4 billion for the same number of airframes. Given the massive deficit we had in 1993, something had to be cut.

No, the real problem was that the Liberals pissed around in finding a replacement and took another DECADE to finally order something, which STILL isn't operational. That was totally unacceptable. By the time the Cyclones are ready, it will more than two decades after the EH-101 was originally ordered that a replacement is available for service.