[Scape]

If we are to extend the mission beyond 2010 this issue will need to be rectified. Even if we leave as planned we will need to a huge replacement order to get the forces back in shape.

[Gunnair]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Those used Brit subs were a great Liberal deal.......EH101, Airborne.....crappy subs...

If we hadn`t of bought used, I doubt we would have bought.

[Tricks]

There is a group at Western who is trying to stop the Engineering department from helping out the company that makes these. Assholes.

[EyeBrock]

Gunnair Gunnair:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Those used Brit subs were a great Liberal deal.......EH101, Airborne.....crappy subs...

If we hadn`t of bought used, I doubt we would have bought.

We didn't even get cash for them, the leaky boats were in lieu of rent for Goose Bay and BATUS.
Add that to $500 million in cancellation fees (1994 rates) for the EH101's and it was some great deal making.

[bootlegga]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Those used Brit subs were a great Liberal deal.......EH101, Airborne.....crappy subs...

Yep, those subs sure suck...bye bye HMS Illustrious!

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/08 ... -canuck-s/



The Airborne disaster is Mulroney's fault. What the fuck was he thinking deploying a hard-assed commando unit on a peacekeeping mission. They should NEVER have been in Somalia. Chetien just had to clean up another of Mulroney's mistakes.

The EH-101 is the only legit complaint you've got, and it's getting mighty old. Maybe a leftie or two can start bitching about the Cons scrapping the Arrow so you'll have some company in the "old news department".

[EyeBrock]

bootlegga bootlegga:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Those used Brit subs were a great Liberal deal.......EH101, Airborne.....crappy subs...

Yep, those subs sure suck...bye bye HMS Illustrious!

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/08 ... -canuck-s/



The Airborne disaster is Mulroney's fault. What the fuck was he thinking deploying a hard-assed commando unit on a peacekeeping mission. They should NEVER have been in Somalia. Chetien just had to clean up another of Mulroney's mistakes.

The EH-101 is the only legit complaint you've got, and it's getting mighty old. Maybe a leftie or two can start bitching about the Cons scrapping the Arrow so you'll have some company in the "old news department".

I kinda agree with you.

I'm not a rabid partisan but Quebec Liberals are no friends of the military and Chretien had other options with the Airborne. Chretien looked to De Gaulle on this and how he disbanded a traitorous regt. in the Legion.

This should have been sorted by courts martial and the officers who allowed the breakdown of discipline should have been held accountable.
Most of the real bad apples were from the Van Doos and the political correctness of the time ensured NDHQ had no appetite to take on what was basically a problem with Quebec troops.

Disbanding an honorable regiment is a smear that will last for ever and if you ask any CF warrior worth their salt, they will place their disdain of the Libs on this very act.

How far?

[2Cdo]

bootlegga bootlegga:

The Airborne disaster is Mulroney's fault. What the fuck was he thinking deploying a hard-assed commando unit on a peacekeeping mission. They should NEVER have been in Somalia. Chetien just had to clean up another of Mulroney's mistakes.

1 and 2 Commando of the Canadian Airborne Regiment deployed to Cyprus in 1986 on a peacekeeping mission with 0 incidents. Also Somalia was a Chapter 7 mission which until that time had only been used twice, during the Korean War and the Gulf War. Peace enforcement as opposed to peace keeping.

Chretein actually made a bigger mess by disbanding when the Somalia Inquiry started investigating the upper echelons of DND and the Government.

I just thought that some might think I am condoning the actions of a few shitheads in Somalia. Make no mistake, I don't condone their actions but I think disbanding was the wrong choice. The last Commanding Officer of the Airborne had cleaned house and the unit was cleared "good to go" for a mission to the Balkans when they were ordered disbanded.

[bootlegga]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

1 and 2 Commando of the Canadian Airborne Regiment deployed to Cyprus in 1986 on a peacekeeping mission with 0 incidents. Also Somalia was a Chapter 7 mission which until that time had only been used twice, during the Korean War and the Gulf War. Peace enforcement as opposed to peace keeping.

Chretein actually made a bigger mess by disbanding when the Somalia Inquiry started investigating the upper echelons of DND and the Government.

I just thought that some might think I am condoning the actions of a few shitheads in Somalia. Make no mistake, I don't condone their actions but I think disbanding was the wrong choice. The last Commanding Officer of the Airborne had cleaned house and the unit was cleared "good to go" for a mission to the Balkans when they were ordered disbanded.

I was sad to see the CAR go, but it was a cancer that needed to be excised.

The CAR had some discipline problems (the Rebels) in the mid-80s, which then CO Peter Kenward eliminated. However, after he left, the situation deteriorated once again.

They had zero incidents in 1986 (when Kenward was CO), but in 1981, troopers from 1er Commando "descended on a Nicosia disco armed with clubs and bats and savagely beat men and women in a crowd that numbered in the hundreds", yet when they returned to Canada, they were told they performed in an exemplary manner. Troops later torched superiors cars (a Captain's in 1990, and a sergeant's in 1992), and yet instead of punishing the offenders, the CO was relieved of command. With the release of hazing videos in early 1995, the CAR became a PR nightmare for the Liberals, and frankly, I'm not surprised that the CAR was disbanded. David Bercuson's Significant Incident is a solid read on the issue.

A senior officer once said of the CAR, "It’s a great group to get in, get the job done, and get the hell out. But they are not the group you send in for a sustained, patience-taking, hot, dirty and very trying situation."

The CF can bitch at the Liberals all they want for disbanding the regiment, but they are should be reminded of that the capability was never lost, simply shifted to the individual infantry units across this country.

[bootlegga]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Most of the real bad apples were from the Van Doos and the political correctness of the time ensured NDHQ had no appetite to take on what was basically a problem with Quebec troops.

Sorry, but many of the discipline issues, including the torching of one sergeant's vehicle (with stolen military pyrotechnics no less) were done by 2nd Commando, which primarily drew its personnel from the PPCLI.

Again read Bercusons' Significant Incident, which talks about the Somalia Incident and the CAR in depth.

[EyeBrock]

Nah, I just talked to guys who were in the Airborne. I always found it was better to do that than listen to learned Phd's who have never dug a 6X4X2.

What ever you say, discipline was lost and should have been regained by the usual methods, not by some politicain disbanding a Regiment with an honourable record.

Civvies just don't get this stuff. This is what our guys go to war on.

[bootlegga]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Nah, I just talked to guys who were in the Airborne. I always found it was better to do that than listen to learned Phd's who have never dug a 6X4X2.

What ever you say, discipline was lost and should have been regained by the usual methods, not by some politicain disbanding a Regiment with an honourable record.

Civvies just don't get this stuff. This is what our guys go to war on.

The problem is that the CAR had discipline problems in the 80s and they brought in a tough CO who was thought ot have fixed it, yet less than a decade later, CAR troopers tortured Arone to death, had hazing videos with them: pissing on each other, forcing noobs to eat shit, waving neo-nazi flags and other sick shit. If that's the stuff that elite units "go to war on", then they need a visit to a shrink, not a coddling by their CO.

The CF had over a decade to fix the discipline problem and either never did or fucked it up. Had they fixed the problem, the regiment would still be around. No matter how much you try, the blame lies squarely on the CAR and its own actions.

[EyeBrock]

And a big problem was dealing with the Van Doos. Instead of reading books ask the guys who were there.
I'll have the neo-Nazi elements in the RCR and PPCLI but this stuff should have been sorted out with a decent CO and some good SNCO's.

Instead Chretien just binned them.
Colours gone, honour gone.

Boots, you just don't get what this means to us lot.

It's not like cancelling the EH101, many good guys died fighting for Canada in the Airborne.
Chretien will be eternally despised for this one, just as Hellyer was for killing the RCN and the RCAF.
Both Liberals. Both didn't care about our guys in uniform. Go figure.

[bootlegga]

I do get it, but there comes a time when soldiers have to realize they don't live in some alternate reality, but in the real world. It's terrible incidents like Somalia that have negative connotations for the CF.

The CAR was full of rotten apples for almost two decades. If the CF really wanted to save it, they should have done something instead of installing wimp COs one after another.

Like I said, had the CF cleaned it up the first go round, it would still be there. When they were still in Edmonton, their heavy jump and training schedule mitigate a lot of the bad apples and attitudes. The CF should have moved the CAR somewhere else so they could focus on training, instead of letting the bad apples ruin the whole bunch.

[EyeBrock]

And like I already said, the bosses should have sorted this out.
Don't kill an honourable regiment because the Lt-Col and the RSM can't do the job. Replace them.
What do you think happens in combat?
The CF has tolerated bad leadership far too long.

Now at least we have a military that can do the job, bottom to top. Combat proven.

Daillaire wouldn't last too long in the sand pit but I think Lew Mackenzie would be fine. But hey, he's not a Senator.

[Scape]

EB, the CAR was given a chance at redemption and they still slid back into the abyss and it wasn't just the CAR that was having issues at that time. Remember the super solider program and the integration of females into combat roles were going on around the same time? Frankly the whole thing became a pissing contest and this was the straw that broke the back. Yes, the CAR was elite and as such held in high regard by the rest of us but, full stop, who did they pledge allegiance to the country or their colours? At some point the tail does not get to wage the dog here and that and the whole hazing underground culture had to be made an example of. It's a shame the CAR was the scape goat here but someone was going to get nailed. Rather the CAR then the whole CAF.