[EyeBrock]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Edmund Burke put it well:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Well if you look at if from the Mohawk side I'd say they are following your proverb to a tee.

They (and "we") are not subservient to your laws on our own land. And if we choose to follow your laws then it is because we chose to do so and not because you forced us to.

If your view of Native people is that our own laws and traditions and rights cease to exist because of your laws and views then you are wrong.

If arming boarder guards that are stationed on Mohawk land is something the Mohawks do not want than I would say you have no choice but to listen and compromise. Because if they let you impose your will on them and do nothing, then evil has indeed triumphed.

The Mohawks came up to this part of the world with the British and the UEL's. They have land grants given by the Crown and they are Canadians in Canada.
They should stop acting like they are something else.
Other First Nations have genuine treaties and land claims, these guys have no more right to set up a fiefdom than the descendants of the United Empire Loyalists have. I read history.

But, I'm sure these people will get away with breaking the law, after all they have been doing this since the 1980's and nobody within our wimpy political leadership, federal or provincial has the gonads to do anything about it.

I'm sure the Yanks on the other side of the river are carrying firearms but I can't see them putting up with any of this nonsense.

[Bodah]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

If arming boarder guards that are stationed on Mohawk land is something the Mohawks do not want than I would say you have no choice but to listen and compromise. Because if they let you impose your will on them and do nothing, then evil has indeed triumphed.

I'm assuming Mohawks Natives are armed correct ? I betcha that they have more firepower than the pistols the feds want to arm the guards with. So what's the problem ?

You think people will be out shooting natives next ?

Maybe its for other reasons, protection, terrorism prevention, the U.S. Border.

Or maybe it's because some Mohawks fear that their illegal lucrative smuggling business is going to be hampered now because of armed guards ?

[PJB]

The only viable compromise is to move the border crossing and isolate this 'soverign' piece of land. They want soverignty then they can have it. Hell I would pitch in for some razor wire fence as long as it is on Canada's side.

[Scape]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

It's a start. This stuff has been going on for years. I know a few of the FN guys from Akwasasne Police and there is a lot of stuff going on there that nobody dares tackle. You know the score there, were you not there with an FN rifle?

FN's? No. Taken out of service in 1988 as I recall but I did have a C-7 and yes, I know exactly what you mean. That being said there was two sides to that conflict. I didn't agree with the arms trade and underground economy but in the same token the Police had a long history of confrontaion and were not seen even by the locals as impartial. That undercuts authority.

[EyeBrock]

Scape Scape:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

It's a start. This stuff has been going on for years. I know a few of the FN guys from Akwasasne Police and there is a lot of stuff going on there that nobody dares tackle. You know the score there, were you not there with an FN rifle?

FN's? No. Taken out of service in 1988 as I recall but I did have a C-7 and yes, I know exactly what you mean. That being said there was two sides to that conflict. I didn't agree with the arms trade and underground economy but in the same token the Police had a long history of confrontaion and were not seen even by the locals as impartial. That undercuts authority.

Agreed. Things have changed a lot in the policing world but there doesn't appear to be the same want for change at Akwasasne or on some of the other Mohawk communities.
And really, they have been allowed to get away with a lot. Talk to any OPP or municipal cop that works near one the Mohawk reserves in any part of southern Ontario.
It's bordering on anarchy with smuggling and organised car theft rampant but nobody has the will to stop it.

I can't blame criminals within the Mohawks for taking advantage of the situation though, I blame our own weak political and police leaders.

[Donny_Brasco]

PJB PJB:

Just waiting for you to pop in on this Donny...Do you think that illegal activites are not illegal on 'native' soil?

Just because you say something is yours (Calder Case BC 1973) or you declare something illegal (Marshall 1999) it does not make it so. Marshall is based on a 1760 Treaty read the summary here: http://arcbc.tripod.com/marshall_summary.htm

PJB PJB:

Do you agree that it is ok for natives to be more heavily armed than those who are supposed to enforce the laws of the land?

To me they are one and the same so I suppose that makes your question moot.

$1:

Do you agree with seperate, 'soverign' lands within one nation?

I believe that a deal is a deal. If you have bought your land fairly and acted honestly and with integrity - or failing that have conquered your territory within the justifications and boundaries of your own law than you can ask that question and draw your own conclusion.

However, I note Calder 1973 as being the basis for most land claims against Canada today as our rights have not been extinguished. Again, your own laws reinforce my position on that. Saying that we have no right to the soil that you live on is a falsehood. Canada is duly obligated by her own laws to reconcile and account for every square inch of her land mass.

Furthermore, failing that you open a whole can of worms up in terms of property law. The laws we use the guarantee our rights as the first people here are the same laws that you and I and every property owner, public of private, use in Canada to guarantee our rights as owners.

$1:

Where do we draw the line? Do we move the border crossing away from this reserve? If we have to who pays for it because it would affect both Canada and the United States, and why are they not screaming at the U.S border guards because they are armed 100 yards away from the Canadian border guards. Perhaps they are afraid that their 'storming' would result in a hail of bullets.

Who knows? Unfortunately for you, you cannot arbitrarily dictate the way things are going to be. Obviously the Mohawk feel very strongly about this issue and they are willing to stand up for their rights, weather they are perceived or real. If this were a purely homogenous country without the mess and entanglement of different groups of people with rights and agreements and treaties and languages and histories then all of this would be easy.

I don't know. The Mohawks could be wrong. However being disingenuous by calling them all criminals or drug traffickers does not really reinforce any claim that you may have to dictate and enforce laws on their land. In fact, it is that exact attitude that the Natives of this country are somehow less law abiding and have less integrity than non-aboriginal people that leads you to these issues.

Claiming that "by rights" have the god given right to do whatever you want in Canada without thinking about the legal history and the real property rights really causes yourselves alot of problems.

There is no way these issues will go away. It is up to you weather we resolve them peacefully through discussions and legal agreements as equals. Or face the consequences of creating unrest by arbitrarily imposing your laws on a group that may or may not choose to agree with those laws.

[Proculation]

I'm with the Natives here. If it is on their border and on their land, they can say what they want. We can't impose anything.

[llama66]

Sorry if it falls within Canada, then the Federal Government can arm the border guards if they see fit, if people have an issue with this they can get the hell out of Canada.

[DerbyX]

llama66 llama66:

only you are a minority, a minority that thinks they have a right to dictate policy to the rest of the nation. you have no right to to tell us that we can't arm our border guards in our nation. our laws are your laws, if you don't like them feel free to get the hell out of Canada. I am so tired of your type of attitude, this is Canada, not the Mohawk Nation, if you have a problem you write your MP like the other 32 million Canadians.

They can more accurately say if we aren't happy with them we are free to return to Europe.

[RUEZ]

Donny_Brasco Donny_Brasco:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Edmund Burke put it well:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Well if you look at if from the Mohawk side I'd say they are following your proverb to a tee.

They (and "we") are not subservient to your laws on our own land. And if we choose to follow your laws then it is because we chose to do so and not because you forced us to.

If your view of Native people is that our own laws and traditions and rights cease to exist because of your laws and views then you are wrong.

If arming boarder guards that are stationed on Mohawk land is something the Mohawks do not want than I would say you have no choice but to listen and compromise. Because if they let you impose your will on them and do nothing, then evil has indeed triumphed.

If this land is truly a part of a sovereign first nations and not just a reserve on Canadian soil, then I think the border guards should be between Canada and the Akwesasne. If you aren't part of Canada then don't expect the benefits of being part of Canada.

[llama66]

So minority groups can do what ever they want because they don't agree with something? I totally disagree, these people wish to case an issue with a lawful government then there should be serious repercussions. this just lends credence to the belief that there is a double standard in Canada, one that holds most Canadians responsible for their actions and another standard for certain minority groups, one that allows them to threaten violence to get their way.

[PJB]

llama66 llama66:

So minority groups can do what ever they want because they don't agree with something? I totally disagree, these people wish to case an issue with a lawful government then there should be serious repercussions. this just lends credence to the belief that there is a double standard in Canada, one that holds most Canadians responsible for their actions and another standard for certain minority groups, one that allows them to threaten violence to get their way.

If you read what Donny posted we should be following native laws as they were 'here' first. Natives love Canadian laws when they work to their benefit but totally ignore them when they don't.

[DerbyX]

llama66 llama66:

So minority groups can do what ever they want because they don't agree with something? I totally disagree, these people wish to case an issue with a lawful government then there should be serious repercussions. this just lends credence to the belief that there is a double standard in Canada, one that holds most Canadians responsible for their actions and another standard for certain minority groups, one that allows them to threaten violence to get their way.

First off when we talk about natives they aren't just a minority group. Second, they have more then enough legal mandate let alone moral authority to do this. Canada has been very hypocritical and exclusionary towards the natives since day one. They have done far worse to them throughout the years. Telling them that they must play by our rules and our laws is just BS especially when we believe we can tell other people in other nations that they may not govern themselves like that.

[DerbyX]

PJB PJB:

llama66 llama66:

So minority groups can do what ever they want because they don't agree with something? I totally disagree, these people wish to case an issue with a lawful government then there should be serious repercussions. this just lends credence to the belief that there is a double standard in Canada, one that holds most Canadians responsible for their actions and another standard for certain minority groups, one that allows them to threaten violence to get their way.

If you read what Donny posted we should be following native laws as they were 'here' first. Natives love Canadian laws when they work to their benefit but totally ignore them when they don't.

Everybody does. Everybody loves using laws and rules when its to their advantage but when it isn't suddenly they become unjust laws. Thats human nature.

[Donny_Brasco]

llama66 llama66:

So minority groups can do what ever they want because they don't agree with something? I totally disagree, these people wish to case an issue with a lawful government then there should be serious repercussions. this just lends credence to the belief that there is a double standard in Canada, one that holds most Canadians responsible for their actions and another standard for certain minority groups, one that allows them to threaten violence to get their way.

That is the dogma right there.

People ignorant to the law like your claim that the Canadian "lawful authority" gives them the right to impose their viewpoints and laws on the Natives.

When in fact the very law that you are trying to impose on us actually protects us from your ignorance.

Legally there are many cases where we were told that is not our land and we cannot do this or do that because of your laws. Once in court our rights have been reaffirmed and the laws that built this country protect our rights as Aboriginal people.

The dogma is that if you somehow subvert your own laws to take away my lawful rights to this land then you undermine the whole system, and therefore your authority is no longer lawful and we have no obligation to follow it.

Fortunately the Supreme Court generally takes this into account and is very thoughtful and draws conclusions that are correct based on case law. Thus protecting all of us from those who "by rights" think that life is the way it is because they say so.