[Brenda]

martin14 martin14:

Brenda Brenda:

It takes time. This is a start. It is not in a standstill anymore, people are starting to realize it is not good. Change doesn't happen overnight, like this way of living (or culture, just a matter of how you want to call it) didn't happen overnight.

I really like to see in 25 years what progress has been made.

but is it a pattern, or an aberration ?

A law has been changed already...
It's a little early to say if it aberattion or not. Looking at it from the positive side (really, you guys should try it sometimes), I hope it's a pattern. I hope parents decide not to have their daughters married off. If only 1 father (who is still the head of the family, just like it was one generation ago here) decides to not do it, it's a win.

Changes start small... When my mom married my dad, she had to quit her job. It was normal to do so. That is 45 years ago! ONLY 45 years ago. How much has changed since?

[fifeboy]

hwacker hwacker:

"progress" yeah ok, how about we wipe them off the map, that would be progress.

Anybody that thinks this is progress really should be upping the meds.

These have just arrived for you Hwack, take one right now!

[commanderkai]

Brenda Brenda:

A law has been changed already...
It's a little early to say if it aberattion or not. Looking at it from the positive side (really, you guys should try it sometimes), I hope it's a pattern. I hope parents decide not to have their daughters married off. If only 1 father (who is still the head of the family, just like it was one generation ago here) decides to not do it, it's a win.

I'm sorry Brenda, the law that was changed didn't make it from age 8 and brought the marriage age to 18, but from 15 to 18. The law that was changed will have absolutely no effect on these arranged marriages that this little girl was forced to endure.

So maybe one father won't marry off his eight year old daughter to a 30 year old. Maybe, but so far, the only person who suffers is the girl, since now she lives in fear of her family killing her off. Why hasn't the father or the imam who administered this marriage arrested and tried? Why? Because this progress you and Derby are pointing out is more the courage of one young girl, and not the courage and strength of a nation to change.

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Like I said, you aren't reading the important parts that yes things are changing.

Oh no, I did read it, but I saw nothing about a massive shift of public opinion in those states against arranged marriages, or those governments actually attempting to make an effort on AT LEAST arresting the father and the imam and whoever else was involved in this travesty.

Oh so you think it's progress that one government official did something to enforce a marriage law? The law that was in effect was that anybody under 15 cannot consent to marriage. Therefore the marriage that took place was void. Was the man courageous? Sure, but is this a sign that the Middle East is changing? Probably not, since there's much more that could be done.

$1:

Another invasion? Bomb them? A moment ago you were cheering because the Iraqis voted under harsher conditions then most WW2 POW camps yet cannot see that this type of action is exactly how things change.

And an election does not change things? Or is it that because an election that went off without violence brings too much good news from Iraq for you? So what if there was high security? Considering there has been a de facto civil war in the nation shows that things have changed.

$1:

Blah blah blah trying to read things that aren't there blah blah blah

Sigh.

[Brenda]

An ELECTION changes things? Like here, in modern Canada??? Blinders on much?

[commanderkai]

Brenda Brenda:

An ELECTION changes things? Like here, in modern Canada??? Blinders on much?

Are you really telling me an election can't change things for the better? Come on Brenda.

[Brenda]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Brenda Brenda:

A law has been changed already...
It's a little early to say if it aberattion or not. Looking at it from the positive side (really, you guys should try it sometimes), I hope it's a pattern. I hope parents decide not to have their daughters married off. If only 1 father (who is still the head of the family, just like it was one generation ago here) decides to not do it, it's a win.

I'm sorry Brenda, the law that was changed didn't make it from age 8 and brought the marriage age to 18, but from 15 to 18. The law that was changed will have absolutely no effect on these arranged marriages that this little girl was forced to endure.

So maybe one father won't marry off his eight year old daughter to a 30 year old. Maybe, but so far, the only person who suffers is the girl, since now she lives in fear of her family killing her off. Why hasn't the father or the imam who administered this marriage arrested and tried? Why? Because this progress you and Derby are pointing out is more the courage of one young girl, and not the courage and strength of a nation to change.

You didn't get my point, did you...
Marrying off an 8 year old was illegal all the time. Now it is illegal to marry off a 15 year old too. Abusing children and raping them has been illegal.

Since it still happens (just like killing here in modern Canada is illegal, but it happens too, right? And like speeding is illegal, it happens, right? things are only illegal if you get caught, remember?), at least 4 of those girls got the guts to leave, knowing they had the law on their side. What if they hadn't? Would they still be alife today?

There has to come some change of mindset there. This is a first step.

Why weren't they arrested? Who says they won't? or others won't? I don't think you will hear everything that happens there...

This little girl is the next generation. Her generation and the generation after that could change a nation, a culture. Like our parents and grandparents did.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Oh no, I did read it, but I saw nothing about a massive shift of public opinion in those states against arranged marriages, or those governments actually attempting to make an effort on AT LEAST arresting the father and the imam and whoever else was involved in this travesty.

You truly are an idiot and a child with no true knowledge of the world aren't you. You didn't read anything but what you wanted to.

Your opinion on their cultural traditions is meaningless. What matter is that state officials did intervene. Its one thing to grant the divorce but to charge the father and/or iman might not be possible yet.

You think its so easy to fight centuries of cultural traditions and have not got a single clue that it took us centuries to do it.

What matters is that we do see signs and it is happening.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Oh so you think it's progress that one government official did something to enforce a marriage law? The law that was in effect was that anybody under 15 cannot consent to marriage. Therefore the marriage that took place was void. Was the man courageous? Sure, but is this a sign that the Middle East is changing? Probably not, since there's much more that could be done.

1 that we know of and his reaction showed perfectly well that it was not the norm. In addition (since you obviously didn't read it), the girls story reached others and inspired them.

THATS progress and thats how ideas spread.

commanderkai commanderkai:

blah blah blah .... I need to justify a horrendously evil invasion blah blah blah.

I can do that too.

You are an idiot and whats more you are a coward. You sit at home and expect other people to use violence to enforce your myopic and bigoted view on the world. You think everybody should hold your beliefs well guess what? They don't.

You epitomize the reasons why the west has so much trouble dealing with different cultures in that you expect them to hold the same beliefs and values we do. When they don't you expect them to change and when they resist you use violence to make them. You aren't any different then the men forcing little girls to marry against their will except you haven't got the courage to do it yourself.

You simply do not understand and have got a lot of growing up to do before you are taken seriously.

[DerbyX]

Brenda Brenda:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Brenda Brenda:

A law has been changed already...
It's a little early to say if it aberattion or not. Looking at it from the positive side (really, you guys should try it sometimes), I hope it's a pattern. I hope parents decide not to have their daughters married off. If only 1 father (who is still the head of the family, just like it was one generation ago here) decides to not do it, it's a win.

I'm sorry Brenda, the law that was changed didn't make it from age 8 and brought the marriage age to 18, but from 15 to 18. The law that was changed will have absolutely no effect on these arranged marriages that this little girl was forced to endure.

So maybe one father won't marry off his eight year old daughter to a 30 year old. Maybe, but so far, the only person who suffers is the girl, since now she lives in fear of her family killing her off. Why hasn't the father or the imam who administered this marriage arrested and tried? Why? Because this progress you and Derby are pointing out is more the courage of one young girl, and not the courage and strength of a nation to change.

You didn't get my point, did you...
Marrying off an 8 year old was illegal all the time. Now it is illegal to marry off a 15 year old too. Abusing children and raping them has been illegal.

Since it still happens (just like killing here in modern Canada is illegal, but it happens too, right? And like speeding is illegal, it happens, right? things are only illegal if you get caught, remember?), at least 4 of those girls got the guts to leave, knowing they had the law on their side. What if they hadn't? Would they still be alife today?

There has to come some change of mindset there. This is a first step.

Why weren't they arrested? Who says they won't? or others won't? I don't think you will hear everything that happens there...

This little girl is the next generation. Her generation and the generation after that could change a nation, a culture. Like our parents and grandparents did.

Brenda, he is just a child who doesn't understand that change will not come easy to these people but it will come. He cannot grasp the fact that we spent centuries in our own culture giving greater and greater rights to women or people of colour.

[Brenda]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Brenda Brenda:

An ELECTION changes things? Like here, in modern Canada??? Blinders on much?

Are you really telling me an election can't change things for the better? Come on Brenda.

An election can't change things for the better.
Have you seen things going for the better when Clinton was elected? When Bush was elected, twice? When Harper was elected?

Elections are a moment in time, for a guy to be a puppet on a string of his intelligence agencies. Changes take TIME. Generations sometimes. Not 4 years in office. An election doesn't change the mindset of the people. Time does. Time, and showing "they" do it differently elsewhere.

[commanderkai]

Brenda Brenda:

You didn't get my point, did you...
Marrying off an 8 year old was illegal all the time. Now it is illegal to marry off a 15 year old too. Abusing children and raping them has been illegal.

The law was moved up to 18 years of age, actually.

$1:

Since it still happens (just like killing here in modern Canada is illegal, but it happens too, right? And like speeding is illegal, it happens, right? things are only illegal if you get caught, remember?), at least 4 of those girls got the guts to leave, knowing they had the law on their side. What if they hadn't? Would they still be alife today?

There has to come some change of mindset there. This is a first step.

Is that it? That's the big whole progress you and Derby have been peddling? That four girls were able to get the courage to get out of an arranged marriage?

You know, read a book called Infidel, and there's another example that shows courage against these backwards ideas. But in the end, the society hasn't changed much at all.

That little girl is brave, no doubt, and so are the other three, but the authorities took no action until the girls actually came forward, and even then, those girls are now risking their lives because their families want to murder them because of some twisted sense of honor preservation.

So far the progress you peddled was that a law was changed, but even the law that was changed still made what happened to that girl illegal, and nothing was done and so far, nobody knows what happened to the father who arranged the marriage, and the imam who carried it out, but there's a much greater chance that they're still free than behind bars.

[Bacardi4206]

Brenda Brenda:

That is exactly what I read. I guess we were the only ones, Derb.

The legal age is now 18. Of course there will be arranged marriages. Change is hard to take. Hell, just look at what happens here, when someone says: hey guys, you could do it this way too. It takes time, sometimes generations. GIVE THEM THAT FREAKIN TIME. Those girls are starting a new generation of hope. They are changing their worlds, lifes, laws.

If you don't see that progress, you better up your meds...

Okay, you got a point that is progress but I still don't see the point seeing how there were already laws against this and still over 50% of the younger age girls are being married off to older guys. If they raised the legal age to 18, than took a more agressive approach on cracking down on these marriages. Maybe than that would be complete progress, but still atm little girls are being married off at the same record rate and next month will be the same story.

[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

You truly are an idiot and a child with no true knowledge of the world aren't you. You didn't read anything but what you wanted to.

Mmm...more childish insults. I've been trying to keep respectful to you, but you keep pushing my limits, so from now on, I'm basically going to ignore you because you're nothing more than a little Internet tough guy who derives meaning from insulting people who have different opinions of his own, without actually saying anything even moderately insightful. So as much as you think I'm hurt by what you said, I really don't care about what some tough guy can spew off online.

Grow up, and make sure you stop tossing rocks from your glass house, sooner or later, somebody will take upon your offer and toss it back.

$1:

Your opinion on their cultural traditions is meaningless. What matter is that state officials did intervene. Its one thing to grant the divorce but to charge the father and/or iman might not be possible yet.

So are yours, but who cares. They're opinions, that's why they're meaningless.

The State officials intervene because the girl was fucking there in the court room. How could they not intervene? I know this might come to a surprise to you Derby, but countries like enforcing their laws, even if they are wrong (Iran hanging gays, for example, but of course we cannot call nations out on that since that would require changing cultural traditions. Right)

$1:

You think its so easy to fight centuries of cultural traditions and have not got a single clue that it took us centuries to do it.

What matters is that we do see signs and it is happening.

Yes it took us centuries, but I have this belief that other cultures can learn from the mistakes of ours. See, unlike you Derby, I believe these cultures can actually learn through experience just as much as jumping in head first.

So far, there are only two signs here, that individuals can have courage, and that state officials will enforce laws that were written. The individuals having courage is no sign of progress, since courage has been a part of human nature for a long time, be it on some ancient battlefield, helping runaway slaves, or hiding Jews from the Nazis, or a little girl running away from her rapist and "husband".

Now, the state officials enforcing laws is not progress either, considering that state officials will enforce laws, good or bad. If the law stated that these types of marriages were legal, they would of sent her on their way, so on and so forth.

$1:

that we know of and his reaction showed perfectly well that it was not the norm. In addition (since you obviously didn't read it), the girls story reached others and inspired them.

THATS progress and thats how ideas spread.

His reaction would be one of any father or mother who cared for his children. So unless you believed all Muslim fathers were child abusers, I do not see this as progress.

$1:

You are an idiot and whats more you are a coward. You sit at home and expect other people to use violence to enforce your myopic and bigoted view on the world. You think everybody should hold your beliefs well guess what? They don't.

You epitomize the reasons why the west has so much trouble dealing with different cultures in that you expect them to hold the same beliefs and values we do. When they don't you expect them to change and when they resist you use violence to make them. You aren't any different then the men forcing little girls to marry against their will except you haven't got the courage to do it yourself.

You simply do not understand and have got a lot of growing up to do before you are taken seriously.

You know, if I really cared, I'd defend myself, but at the same time, I'm just going to ignore your rant about how evil and cowardly I am, coming from the person who has a hard time committing to a civilized debate, especially when he's losing.

If you really wanted to have a debate, you'd cut the insults, but so far Derby, you're worse than most of the trolls on this site, even Streaker, who among his very irritating views, he keeps his comments to individual posters with respect, even if he makes broad generalizations about soldiers or whoever else.

Cut the insults, and I'll take you seriously, so far, this discussion has been between Brenda and me, with you hurling rocks, mud, and dung. I tried being patient with you, but so far, you have shown absolutely no respect, to me, or to any poster who differs opinion with you, and your long history of comments backs me up on this.

So Derby, look in the mirror before tossing out insults, because you're really just talking about yourself.

[commanderkai]

Brenda Brenda:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Brenda Brenda:

An ELECTION changes things? Like here, in modern Canada??? Blinders on much?

Are you really telling me an election can't change things for the better? Come on Brenda.

An election can't change things for the better.
Have you seen things going for the better when Clinton was elected? When Bush was elected, twice? When Harper was elected?

Elections are a moment in time, for a guy to be a puppet on a string of his intelligence agencies. Changes take TIME. Generations sometimes. Not 4 years in office. An election doesn't change the mindset of the people. Time does. Time, and showing "they" do it differently elsewhere.

Maybe I said to narrow of a term. The democratic process changes things. Sometimes that means elections, sometimes that means new legislation or lobbying or protests, so on and so forth.

I apologize for the wrong term, though I don't see how an election cannot change things for the better. Half of Canada thinks the United States elected the messiah, so I really don't see how that isn't changing for the better, or is better a more subjective argument, considering people have different views on better or worse.

[DerbyX]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Brenda Brenda:

That is exactly what I read. I guess we were the only ones, Derb.

The legal age is now 18. Of course there will be arranged marriages. Change is hard to take. Hell, just look at what happens here, when someone says: hey guys, you could do it this way too. It takes time, sometimes generations. GIVE THEM THAT FREAKIN TIME. Those girls are starting a new generation of hope. They are changing their worlds, lifes, laws.

If you don't see that progress, you better up your meds...

Okay, you got a point that is progress but I still don't see the point seeing how there were already laws against this and still over 50% of the younger age girls are being married off to older guys. If they raised the legal age to 18, than took a more agressive approach on cracking down on these marriages. Maybe than that would be complete progress, but still atm little girls are being married off at the same record rate and next month will be the same story.

You just assume a record rate and assume the women are being "married off". The article states the 50% rate is for women being married at a young but appropriate age and one that our culture viewed as the norm too. Just because our first time marriage age has risen doesn't mean their needs to. As for "older guys", that too was the norm in our culture. Arranged marriages aren't all conducted against a young womens will. My Iranian co-worker went home and entered into what is technically an arranged marriage but he assures me it was not as if the women was sold to him do to speak. Their parents arranged what they thought would be a suitable match (not unlike getting fixed up or through a dating service). They then met and courted for a time before they both agreed to be married.

Thats the norm. In rural regions and more isolated ones is where old traditions are still clung to but as we have pointed out that is where it is indeed changing.

You guys just expect their govt to in effect enforce your morality on people who have existed this way for centuries and when they do make progress you make grandiose claims that its not enough and troops should be sent in to force them to adapt. The truth is that the vast majority of young girls are not married off when they are children even if they still enter into "arranged marriages".

Thats their culture and theirs to change not you.