[roger-roger]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Just because a few Americans and Canadians believe in the BS load Bush shoved on us doesn't mean they should also.

I really dont know what your talking about there, the statement is way to vague.

DerbyX DerbyX:

They should do what ever the hell they want to do and fuck the opinion of people insulting them and telling them what they should and shouldn't do.

Right and that will save lives, maybe listening to people who have been fighting there for 7 years would stop them from doing stupid shit. Like sauntering in on a ambush, with one working radio and not enough ammo to sustain themselves in a fire fight.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Wasting their time in yes it is an unwinnable war because we aren't ever going to get these people to just roll over and let us fuck them. They have been fighting for their tribes way of life for probably a thousand years longer then Canada has been around so not one single westerner will ever force his beliefs and vision of society on them.

You really dont know what ISAF is trying to do. First off, it is no longer a Canadian goal to remove the Taliban. It wasnt like that when I was there and it hasnt been for a while. The goal is to educate and train the ANA and ANP so they can handle themselves like big boys. That is something that can be achieved by 2010 if not sooner.

DerbyX DerbyX:

In addition, most if not all the reasons they are often violent and oppressive are the reasons we simply cannot tough without losing the few allies we have.

Again what the hell are you talking about?

DerbyX DerbyX:

A wasted war and a wasted effort and our resources should be in defending our own country with a larger navy and airforce and finding better ways to aid those in need without launching wars based on false premises.

Right, so we should stay in Canada and only deploy when a nation around the world is not able to help themselves. Isnt that what Canada is doing in Afghanistan at the moment? Americans invaded, and Canada has been assisting in stabilizing the country.

Canada is in a country that has been ripped apart by war and has not really recovered since the Russians left. You say we should only go outside the country to be UN peacekeepers again, I say this is bullshit. The UN has become a useless body in solving international conflict, and when they do deploy peacekeepers they wrap them up so much in rules and regulations, they become for the most part no more then figureheads. There are a few incidences when this is not the case but the nations involved had to fight tooth and nail to do something other then stand at a OP and watch. Peacekeepers are there to make other nations feel warm and fuzzy about "doing something". I have only been on one tour and that was to Afghanistan on 07, but I have talked to many many soldiers who have gone on UN missions and they all say they were bullshit.

You are right about several things about Afghanistan but there are times when you cant just sit back. Afghanistan has done a lot of good for this country’s military, if anything it has helped us prepare for the future.

[DerbyX]

$1:

I really dont know what your talking about there, the statement is way to vague.

Fits right in with the whole "war on terror" BS.

$1:

Right and that will save lives, maybe listening to people who have been fighting there for 7 years would stop them from doing stupid shit. Like sauntering in on a ambush, with one working radio and not enough ammo to sustain themselves in a fire fight.

Then feel free to have us all step aside and allow the US to run the entire show as people like manifest destiny say. Regardless, the french should do whatever the hell they feel their country should do.

$1:

You really dont know what ISAF is trying to do. First off, it is no longer a Canadian goal to remove the Taliban. It wasnt like that when I was there and it hasnt been for a while. The goal is to educate and train the ANA and ANP so they can handle themselves like big boys. That is something that can be achieved by 2010 if not sooner.

I do know that, I simply don't care because the country was invaded under a false premise and the act of how the taliban were removed under those premises renders everything we ever do there tainted.

The fact is that we invaded obstensively to get OBL not for regime change. That invasion alone was still wrong. The US said both before and after 9/11 that they didn't care what the taliban were doing as long as they got obl. Besides the fact that we shouldn't even need to be training the people who "beat the USSR" in order to defeat a bunch of half-trained taliban insurgents there is still the matter that the violence of their society is very endemic to a way of life htey cling to as evidenced by the sheer corruption of Karzais govt, the resurgence of the opium lords (under our protection natch), and the fact that these ANA and ANP members are comitting the very same atrocities that the taliban did just as they did before the taliban came along. We knew that then and we know it now only this time we are culpabale in it.

In other words, their society has brought this violence on themselves because of themselves and since you and others call their culture "backward" I doubt you will be the ones to help them unless you believe we need to convert them to a different religion.

$1:

Right, so we should stay in Canada and only deploy when a nation around the world is not able to help themselves. Isnt that what Canada is doing in Afghanistan at the moment? Americans invaded, and Canada has been assisting in stabilizing the country.

No, we should stay in our a country unless asked to helop by another country. Going into a country whos violence is as much based along tribal lines and tribal regions and picking one group out of the bunch to attack is the very definition of wrong. Not only did we westerners creat the situation by siding with the very people we now fight because we wanted them to drain USSR's resources in a costly, bloody, and drawnout war we turned our backs on them even though we saw the Mujahideen freedom fighters delvolve into a warring band of criminals doing shit so bad that the Taliban arose to save the people and when they turned out to be just as bad we did nothing as well.

What we should do is mind our own buisness and if its a case where there is simply chaos and people in need then we recognize we are their to help by establishing what contact we can and the assurrance that we will help all sides reach a peaceful agreement or else let them fight their wars just as we fought ours.

$1:

Canada is in a country that has been ripped apart by war and has not really recovered since the Russians left. You say we should only go outside the country to be UN peacekeepers again, I say this is bullshit. The UN has become a useless body in solving international conflict, and when they do deploy peacekeepers they wrap them up so much in rules and regulations, they become for the most part no more then figureheads. There are a few incidences when this is not the case but the nations involved had to fight tooth and nail to do something other then stand at a OP and watch. Peacekeepers are there to make other nations feel warm and fuzzy about "doing something". I have only been on one tour and that was to Afghanistan on 07, but I have talked to many many soldiers who have gone on UN missions and they all say they were bullshit.

Ripped apart by who? Us thats who. Foriegners. We were the idoits who insured this would happen by helping the insurgents against the USSR only becasue it suited our needs. Then we abandoned them and had no intention of helping them up to the very eve of invasion as long as they again suited our needs.

What you defend is sending in an invasion and occuping force to affect regime change and we did it without any understanding of the situation on the ground or the past few decades and what really happened. Now you claim some sort of savant knowledge but thats just bolloxs.

You don't just invade foreign countries because you find the culture backward.

$1:

You are right about several things about Afghanistan but there are times when you cant just sit back. Afghanistan has done a lot of good for this country’s military, if anything it has helped us prepare for the future.

Actually sitting back is often the first and best policy. Roads to hell being paved and all that. You might also say "there is a wrong way and a right way to do things". In afghanistan we choose the wrong way.

Your last comment quite frankly just reinforces the belief that despite everyone of our so called stated good intentions this op is for nothing more then giving Canada combat experience and is a large scale live fire exercise.

I'll ask you this. If the best thing for the all the Afghan peoples is to bring all sides to the negotiation table, which obviously includes the taliban, and agree to their conditions will you support it even if the conditions are the immediate withdrawl of all foreign forces?

[roger-roger]

We are training the ANA and ANP how to do their job properly. Instead of shooting and beating the hell out of people to get what they want. We are teaching them not to be like the Taliban.
I never said the Afghanistan culture was backwards, some parts of it can be backwards though, its parts that deal with religious laws and religious dogma thats the worst. The role of women in their society is archaic as well.

$1:

Actually sitting back is often the first and best policy. Roads to hell being paved and all that. You might also say "there is a wrong way and a right way to do things". In Afghanistan we choose the wrong way.

Right sitting back sure helps, your right we should have sat out on the Korean war, Kuwait, WWI, WWII, the Boer War ect.
Oh thats right we should talk to the Taliban, what were we thinking, lets invite them over for tea! We can have cookies and be the best of friends, laugh about all the silly things they have done. It will be a blast! Then after the tea party they will see the error of their ways and help dismantle the Al Qaeda training camps in Pakistan. Then they will stop terrorist cells in Thailand and south East Asia.
I don’t claim any savant knowledge, and I don’t support the way the Americans like to charge into things, bitching and complaining about troops in Afghanistan isn’t going to fix it. Neither is having a chit chat with terrorists. The only way is to help Afghanistan get back on its own feet; first thing they have to do is have a stable government. Just withdrawing troops wont do that, the best way to teach the country how to be stable and NOT ignore it like you would have us do.

[DerbyX]

Don't compare a war where one country declares war on another and other countries are forced to fight. We did no such thing in afghansitan. We invaded the country for a reason that has since been tossed by the wayside and that was wrong. Period.

Now we think we ahve the right to dictate to them in their own country, institute our beliefs, our way of life as much as we can instead of allowing them to solve their problems themselves.

BTW, Karzai and the people themselves see the taliban as being an important part of the future. The only stumbling block is that the taliban rightefully demands all troops of foreign nations be withdrawn.

Perfectly valid.

As for the Boer war I suggest you reseach the concentration camps and genocide comitted by us in that war in actions far worse then anything the taliban ever did.

[roger-roger]

They elected Afghan government is the ones accepting what we are teaching them. If their government said that they do not want us in their contry anymore we would start to with draw its that simple.

[roger-roger]

If you really do think withdrawing troops is the only stumbling blocks to peace in Afghanistan your an idiot.

When I was taught in school about the Boer war concentration camps and genocide were left out, I will look into it however.

[meaden24]

we are in Afghanistan from an official invitation of the afghan government, which basically ruins your entire argument derby. you're going to have to figure out something else the conservatives are doing that you want to complain about because you're not even close to being right on this one.

[DerbyX]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

They elected Afghan government is the ones accepting what we are teaching them. If their government said that they do not want us in their contry anymore we would start to with draw its that simple.

We put that govt in charge after comitting regime change. Do not pretend anything else is true.

You might also note the hard connections Karzai has to corruption and the heroin trade. Ask Scape as he's got all the best links.

[DerbyX]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

If you really do think withdrawing troops is the only stumbling blocks to peace in Afghanistan your an idiot.

When I was taught in school about the Boer war concentration camps and genocide were left out, I will look into it however.

If you think staying and killing innocent people is the path to peace then you are an idiot.

Boer War atrocities

[DerbyX]

meaden24 meaden24:

we are in Afghanistan from an official invitation of the afghan government, which basically ruins your entire argument derby. you're going to have to figure out something else the conservatives are doing that you want to complain about because you're not even close to being right on this one.

Suuuure. The govt that we installed invited us. An inherent contradiction. What about the one we deposed?

The US told the taliban before and after 9/11 that they didn't care what they did in their country as long as they got OBL on a silver platter. When the taliban demanded proof they invaded in short order.

Karzai's govt has about as much legitimacy as the vichy govt did. Occupying forces do not install legitamite govts.

[Bacardi4206]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Don't compare a war where one country declares war on another and other countries are forced to fight. We did no such thing in afghansitan. We invaded the country for a reason that has since been tossed by the wayside and that was wrong. Period.

Now we think we ahve the right to dictate to them in their own country, institute our beliefs, our way of life as much as we can instead of allowing them to solve their problems themselves.

BTW, Karzai and the people themselves see the taliban as being an important part of the future. The only stumbling block is that the taliban rightefully demands all troops of foreign nations be withdrawn.

Perfectly valid.

As for the Boer war I suggest you reseach the concentration camps and genocide comitted by us in that war in actions far worse then anything the taliban ever did.

Yes we invaded a country for a reason, because our allies were attacked by terrorists and we went there to shut it down. After of which, it was our full intent to restabalize Aghanistan. I think you are mixing up America with Canada, America was the country that got involved in Iraq for some unknown reason. Canada just went to Afghanistan.

Also who's dictating? do you even got any idea what is going on over there? They do everything they want to do, we don't dictate how they live there lives. The only we setup is certon TEMPORARY agreements, and it is TEMPORARY unti'll it is not needed anymore. Such as don't speed your car when a convey is passing by. Also there houses get searched, which is to search for terrorists and weapon caches. Nothing more, they do not go house by house breaking into every single one. They act on intel that they got of a possible terrorist hideout, or weapon cache. Mostly given by other civilians.

Also we are not intituting our beliefs on them... are you fucking mental? Go actually read what is being done in Afghanistan, please. Pretty please. All we do is fight Terrorists and Insurgents, find and destroy all weapon caches, expecially motors, mines and dangerous weapons. We train the ANA and ANP so they can protect there own country when we are gone.

Along with that, we build hospitals and supply them, we build schools so kids can learn things (Which we don't play any part of what they get taught, it's all the governments and teachers decisions)

We build irrigations so they can have more food, we clear hundreds of mines putting our Combat Engineers at risk to make sure no civilian car or military will drive over them and kill themselves.

Also we are not putting our way of life on them, what are you not understanding? We are giving THEM the power to run there own lives, because current they can't because they are under the law of the Taliban which is not a good place to be. By setting up there government, they can have the same setup we do where there country is not dictated by terrorist, criminals, and low life murderous scum with no concern for life. It gives the people the power to actually live a proper life, where they can live for themselves. Try and compare a country like Iran to Afghanistan. Iran has its problems, there is no doubt about it. However they can actually get a job, earn a living and put food on the table. Able to walk outside without worrying about some organization like the Taliban taking your kids and forcing them to serve there organization, or having something like that stomp all over you and your life.

That is what we are trying to give them, there lives back. If you want to play Hippie, go ahead but just note this for a second. The Taliban have been terrorizing Afghanistan for many years, even way before we even went into Afghanistan. Currently they target civilian populations on purpose, which they also did before NATO even got involved in Afghanistan after 9/11. They recruit children to fight and die for them, and strap bombs to 9 year olds and force them to suicide bomb themselves near NATO soldiers.

So yeah, let's cut and run because Mr. Hippie doesn't think all the good we are doing, and the ultimate goal is worth it. Putting the people of Afghanistan back in the power of the Taliban, where the Taliban run there lives and kill them. Where they go back to be uneducated, without medical attention and back to be poor with a lot of people hungry. Mostly in the big cities.

[Bacardi4206]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

If you really do think withdrawing troops is the only stumbling blocks to peace in Afghanistan your an idiot.

When I was taught in school about the Boer war concentration camps and genocide were left out, I will look into it however.

If you think staying and killing innocent people is the path to peace then you are an idiot.

Boer War atrocities

We do everything we possible can to prevent civilian casualties, but most of them are all accidents. You do know what accident means right? Further more, if you actually read the reports of the civilian casualties and not just the numbers. You will realize that quite a large percent of it involves a civilian acted retarted. The rest is usually due to Air Support bombing, which is either issues by wrong coordinates or on purpose but due to bad intel thought they were bombing a taliban hideout.

We even got big Rules of Engagement that puts our soldiers are risk, just so we don't got to put civilians at risk.

Also since you are apparently so educated at civilian deaths, go research the statistics of Civilian deaths by the Taliban, you will actually find out that the Taliban have been killing civilians before we even got into Afghanistan. Along with a lot more when we did get involved.

It doesn't matter if we leave or not, civilians will get killed because we are giving back power to the Taliban which has no concern for life, expecially civilian life. Atleast our presence presents a solution to end civilian deaths.

So don't be so idiotic, and think about both sides before you start cut and running.

[DerbyX]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Yes we invaded a country for a reason, because our allies were attacked by terrorists and we went there to shut it down. After of which, it was our full intent to restabalize Aghanistan. I think you are mixing up America with Canada, America was the country that got involved in Iraq for some unknown reason. Canada just went to Afghanistan.

-- NO. The US told them up fron they could care less what awful things they did as long as they got OBL. Our mission there was never ever regime change. That just became necessary to say in order to support staying there.


Also who's dictating? do you even got any idea what is going on over there? They do everything they want to do, we don't dictate how they live there lives. The only we setup is certon TEMPORARY agreements, and it is TEMPORARY unti'll it is not needed anymore. Such as don't speed your car when a convey is passing by. Also there houses get searched, which is to search for terrorists and weapon caches. Nothing more, they do not go house by house breaking into every single one. They act on intel that they got of a possible terrorist hideout, or weapon cache. Mostly given by other civilians.

We are dictating. Our views on society, our western ideoogy, our position on drugs, culture, social development ......

Also we are not intituting our beliefs on them... are you fucking mental? Go actually read what is being done in Afghanistan, please. Pretty please. All we do is fight Terrorists and Insurgents, find and destroy all weapon caches, expecially motors, mines and dangerous weapons. We train the ANA and ANP so they can protect there own country when we are gone.

-- All we are doing is attacking people who are defending their homes and way of life. We choose a side among many all of home were as bad as the other then invented this whole insurgent crisis by picking on out of the bunch to claim we are defending "them".

Along with that, we build hospitals and supply them, we build schools so kids can learn things (Which we don't play any part of what they get taught, it's all the governments and teachers decisions)

--- That could have been done without bloodshed and invasion and quite frankly should have been attempted long before we abandoned them after they served their purpose.

We build irrigations so they can have more food, we clear hundreds of mines putting our Combat Engineers at risk to make sure no civilian car or military will drive over them and kill themselves.

--- as above.

Also we are not putting our way of life on them, what are you not understanding? We are giving THEM the power to run there own lives, because current they can't because they are under the law of the Taliban which is not a good place to be. By setting up there government, they can have the same setup we do where there country is not dictated by terrorist, criminals, and low life murderous scum with no concern for life. It gives the people the power to actually live a proper life, where they can live for themselves. Try and compare a country like Iran to Afghanistan. Iran has its problems, there is no doubt about it. However they can actually get a job, earn a living and put food on the table. Able to walk outside without worrying about some organization like the Taliban taking your kids and forcing them to serve there organization, or having something like that stomp all over you and your life.

That is what we are trying to give them, there lives back. If you want to play Hippie, go ahead but just note this for a second. The Taliban have been terrorizing Afghanistan for many years, even way before we even went into Afghanistan. Currently they target civilian populations on purpose, which they also did before NATO even got involved in Afghanistan after 9/11. They recruit children to fight and die for them, and strap bombs to 9 year olds and force them to suicide bomb themselves near NATO soldiers.

So yeah, let's cut and run because Mr. Hippie doesn't think all the good we are doing, and the ultimate goal is worth it. Putting the people of Afghanistan back in the power of the Taliban, where the Taliban run there lives and kill them. Where they go back to be uneducated, without medical attention and back to be poor with a lot of people hungry. Mostly in the big cities.

Cut and run? Are you guys all idiots who simply use that phrase to describe everybody not as brainwashed as you are?

2011 was "cut and run" under the Liberals and now its a solid plan under harper.

Nothing you have said justifies our invasion and nothing we subsequently do can justify the fact that you don't just up an invade a soveriegn nation just because you don't like the govt.

[DerbyX]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

If you really do think withdrawing troops is the only stumbling blocks to peace in Afghanistan your an idiot.

When I was taught in school about the Boer war concentration camps and genocide were left out, I will look into it however.

If you think staying and killing innocent people is the path to peace then you are an idiot.

Boer War atrocities

We do everything we possible can to prevent civilian casualties, but most of them are all accidents. You do know what accident means right? Further more, if you actually read the reports of the civilian casualties and not just the numbers. You will realize that quite a large percent of it involves a civilian acted retarted. The rest is usually due to Air Support bombing, which is either issues by wrong coordinates or on purpose but due to bad intel thought they were bombing a taliban hideout.

We even got big Rules of Engagement that puts our soldiers are risk, just so we don't got to put civilians at risk.

Also since you are apparently so educated at civilian deaths, go research the statistics of Civilian deaths by the Taliban, you will actually find out that the Taliban have been killing civilians before we even got into Afghanistan. Along with a lot more when we did get involved.

It doesn't matter if we leave or not, civilians will get killed because we are giving back power to the Taliban which has no concern for life, expecially civilian life. Atleast our presence presents a solution to end civilian deaths.

So don't be so idiotic, and think about both sides before you start cut and running.

You really know nothing don't you?

The Taliban arose because all those freedom fighting mujahideen warlords we helped oust the USSR began fighting amongst themselselves and comitting atrocities. Intially the taliban was viewed as saviours but that ended quick.

Regardless, we have no right to arbitraily interfer no matter you try and justify it because everybody finds a way to justify their actions, even the taliban.

[meaden24]

let us all give thanks to the fact that derby will never be in charge of canadian foreign policy or her majesty's armed forces.