[tritium]

bootlegga bootlegga:

They can call it whatever they want, it'll be cancelled in 6 months anyways...

Only if Dion gets elected, and that would be a wet dream for some CKA members.

To bad it's just a dream...

[bootlegga]

tritium tritium:

bootlegga bootlegga:

They can call it whatever they want, it'll be cancelled in 6 months anyways...

Only if Dion gets elected, and that would be a wet dream for some CKA members.

To bad it's just a dream...

Based on Harper's back-tracking on defence spending lately, it doesn't appear to matter who is in office for projects to get cancelled.

[Tracker]

How 'bout just 'The Liberal'? It can just stay in port being constantly loaded with our tax dollars while other hard working breakers go out and get the job done.

[EyeBrock]

bootlegga bootlegga:

tritium tritium:

bootlegga bootlegga:

They can call it whatever they want, it'll be cancelled in 6 months anyways...

Only if Dion gets elected, and that would be a wet dream for some CKA members.

To bad it's just a dream...

Based on Harper's back-tracking on defence spending lately, it doesn't appear to matter who is in office for projects to get cancelled.

C17 Strategic Transport aircraft, CH47 Heavy lift battlefield support helicopter, Leopard C2 main battle tank, Armoured Patrol Vehicle, Nyala anti mine apc, Mamba anti mine apc, UAV's. All equipment ordered, and all except the CH47 delivered and in use, and the Chinooks will be in theatre soon to replace the rented heavy lift.

If you look beyond the headlines on the supply ships we can see that the NST (Naval Staff Target) for the all singing-dancing ships is beyond our ability to pay for them. Tankers can refuel our ships and a new resupply ship is being looked at. For a minority government the Tories have secured kit that our guys need to fulfill the mission that the Chretien government gave them.

We can all be partisan on this but ask the guys in the 'Stan what they think of all the new kit the demon Tories have procured in a very short time.

[bootlegga]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Based on Harper's back-tracking on defence spending lately, it doesn't appear to matter who is in office for projects to get cancelled.

C17 Strategic Transport aircraft, CH47 Heavy lift battlefield support helicopter, Leopard C2 main battle tank, Armoured Patrol Vehicle, Nyala anti mine apc, Mamba anti mine apc, UAV's. All equipment ordered, and all except the CH47 delivered and in use, and the Chinooks will be in theatre soon to replace the rented heavy lift.

If you look beyond the headlines on the supply ships we can see that the NST (Naval Staff Target) for the all singing-dancing ships is beyond our ability to pay for them. Tankers can refuel our ships and a new resupply ship is being looked at. For a minority government the Tories have secured kit that our guys need to fulfill the mission the Chretien government gave them.

We can all be partisan on this but ask the guys in the 'Stan what they think of all the new kit the demon Tories have procured in a very short time.

Sorry, EyeBrock, but for a party that created the 'Canada First' program, they haven't done much for Canada first.

Cancelled

Mid-shore patrol vessels
Heavy icebreakers (will be medium icebreakers w/o year round Arctic ability)
JSS
Arctic Port (not really cancelled, but will only be built AFTER a pipeline is, which will take at least a decade).
CP-140 upgrades

Yes, they've bought/leased some tanks, C-17s and are planning to buy (but haven't bought - no cash outlay for them yet) 6 used CH-47Ds and UAVs. Until they get those, they will lease 6 Russian Mil-8s. The Nyalas and Mambas were actually bought by the Libs, as were the M-777 howitzers. The rest of their big announcement last year (CH-47Fs, armoured trucks and JSS) are all either still waiting to be ordered or cancelled.

I'm glad the guys in the 'Stan have some new kit, but the guys in the 'Stan are NOT the enitre CF or even all of Canada. Defence spending should be better balanced, but Harper is relying on poor advice and spending the lions share on the army. Even during WW2 we didn't spend 75% of the budget on the army, it was spent on all three services, roughly equally.

As far as I can see, Harper is turning into Mulroney part deux. He promises big and hopes the hype will get him some votes. Then a year or two later when nobody's looking, the order get cancelled or changed.

[EyeBrock]

On the C17's, I saw 3 on the ramp at Trenton last week. The fourth is due by the end of August/early September. You should take off those Liberal tinted glasses.

The Nyalas were ordered by the Libs but paid for by the Tories. Unlike the EH101's.
The Mambas were procured by the Tories in 2006.

The CH47 crews are already being trained in the US and have been seconded to combat sqns within the US military in the 'Stan. Aircraft are coming off the production line with Maple Leaf roundels as we speak.

I agree that the lions share of expediture is going on the Army/Mobile Command but that is who is actually doing the fighting at the moment.

What is Air Command doing besides resupply?

Where are the CF18's? Where have they ever been?

What is Maritime Command doing besides the odd foray with Somali pirates?

Really we have a limited budget as the Canadian people have historically dodged their commitment to fully fund their own national defence.
Sure Canadians have rallied to the call and are excellent sailors/soldiers/airmen/women.
But we spend a very small amount national defence. We relied on the Brits and now we rely on the Yanks.

Until the national mood changes we have to ensure we fund the branches of the military that needs it.

The Army is in combat.

The Air Force, what there is of it, is not, neither is the Navy.

If you want big fuck-off icebreakers and other shit you should be willing to pay for it, something the Liberals have never done when it comes to the military.

Harper has done what he could, more than I expected but less than he promised. I'm sure our guys in Afghanistan are happy with what they have got from this government, in fact I know it.

[stokes]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

What is Air Command doing besides resupply?

Where are the CF18's? Where have they ever been?

What is Maritime Command doing besides the odd foray with Somali pirates?

The Army is in combat.

The Air Force, what there is of it, is not, neither is the Navy.

Here is the deal

If our Navy is in Combat our country is in deep deep shit. Earlier this year Several ships from both coasts were deployed in support of several operations.

The task group in the Persian Gulf/ Gulf of Oman/ Red Sea/ Indian Ocean are doing a very important Job and just because no one is currently shooting at them doesnt mean the threat isnt there.

Even Ships that deploy in support of Foreign Affairs are still tasked for SAR and enforcement of Fishery Laws and Enviromental Laws

You need to learn what it is exactly the Navy does because you have absolutely no clue!!!

The Airforce has it even tougher, they deploy with both the Army and the Navy but never get the credit, do you think some construction Techs arent working on the ground in A-stan as part of PRT, or that Pilots arent there flying missions for Recce so we know what is out there awaiting our troops.

You are Lost, just because the army makes the news doesnt mean they are out there alone!!!!

[EyeBrock]

Sure I’m aware that the Navy, (actually we don’t have a navy, its called Maritime Command, thank the Liberals of the 1960’s for the demise of the three Services) does fishery protection and all that.
I lived in Newfoundland for three years and I’m well aware of Maritime Commands good work, but they are not in combat.

The odd Air Command or naval tech doing stuff with the infantry doesn’t make it a joint service mission. It’s just the silliness of this ‘combined services’ bollocks that has made the CF less effective. It’s time we went back to three Services. It works way better that way.

The Air Command are doing recce in what? The odd chopper we have that can take that altitude?

When the Dutch can deploy F16’s to Afghanistan it makes one think why Air Command can’t get the CF18’s to stop defending CFB Bagotville and actually provide air cover to our Infantry units in Afghanistan that need it.

If our “navy” had a more effective attack capability maybe they could provide at the minimum, precision strikes from cruise missile armed warships, and at maximum, actual air support or air cover from heli-carriers or actual aircraft carriers.
All options are highly unlikely with Canada’s reluctance to fund more than the bare minimum, when it comes to the military.

Really, who is going to attack Canada with ships at the moment?
Maybe Putin can scrape off the rust from the Sevastapol fleet and give it a go but our mighty neighbours to the south can hold the line until we build a few more ships.

Unfortunately I know a little more than ‘nothing’ about Canada’s military. I suggest you take a more strategic outlook on our combat capability.

At the end of the day there are no Air Command or Maritime Command casualties out of our current operations.
The Army has had 93 combat deaths. I think I can rest my case on which combat arm needs the resources at the moment.

The Army needs the cash.
New ships can wait.
Combat in Afghanistan is now.
Our guys need the right kit right now.

[herbie]

Harper should ring up Gordon Campbell. He can tell him about that great shipyard in Germany that'll make sure not one Canadian gets a job building it and how to spin the "how much we saved" into something positive.

[EyeBrock]

Should we buy Canadian just because its Canadian?
We have German tanks and US aircraft, why are ships such a big deal?
Should we not get the best deal we can get?
Military armanents, is that what we want to invest our talent in? Can we not just buy from the Yanks or something?

Ships are still the sacred cow, it's all very industrial!

[robmik43]

Good posts EyeBrock.
Those of us with common sense agree with you.
As for the others, well...no sense, no feeling, so
they shouldn't be too put out.

[llama66]

$1:

actually we don’t have a navy, its called Maritime Command

we still have a navy, call it whatever, its still a navy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/
furthermore, no government since ww2 really has paid alot of attention to the armed service. What Harper has done in the last couple of years is one of the only things, in my opinion, Harper has done right.

[llama66]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Should we buy Canadian just because its Canadian?
We have German tanks and US aircraft, why are ships such a big deal?
Should we not get the best deal we can get?
Military armanents, is that what we want to invest our talent in? Can we not just buy from the Yanks or something?

Ships are still the sacred cow, it's all very industrial!

Because buying Canadian ensures Canadians are employed to build a Canadian product for national defence. Why should we be reliant on others for things we can provide for ourselves.

[roger-roger]

llama66 llama66:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Should we buy Canadian just because its Canadian?
We have German tanks and US aircraft, why are ships such a big deal?
Should we not get the best deal we can get?
Military armanents, is that what we want to invest our talent in? Can we not just buy from the Yanks or something?

Ships are still the sacred cow, it's all very industrial!

Because buying Canadian ensures Canadians are employed to build a Canadian product for national defence. Why should we be reliant on others for things we can provide for ourselves.

Because sometimes the Canadian solution is not the best.

[herbie]

$1:

Because sometimes the Canadian solution is not the best.

Yeah so cancel that jet fighter, sell off that sateliite maker, scrap those fast ferries and get back to chopping wood and drawing water, boy.
Gotta convince everyone of that.